Plot and Character Feedback

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Started by Lunarea 1231 posts Page 36 of 62 View original ↗
  1. jonthefox said:
    @ super shy gamer girl - sounds like it could be a nice little game.  I'd play it.  I agree that "A Horrific Trip" isn't too great of a title.  Hard for me to come up with a suggestion though.  Even something as simple as "Blackout" would be better, I think.  Ultimately, since you know the secrets and mysteries of your game, I think you'd have to come up with ideas that would work, and we could give you feedback and which ones we liked better.  

    btw, welcome to the forums :)
    Thanks for the welcome ^.^ And thanks for the suggestion and input. ^.^

    BigToastie said:
    @super shy gamer girl

    Horror comedy will be a hard one to pull off, but awesome if done well (as they are near enough polar opposites in terms of genre for games) 

    I'd say firstly try make certain parts of your game adhere to one or the other, don't break a suspense moment with something comedic (unless you find a way that it fits)

    and possibly (just an idea from the top of my head with what info you've given):

    Zoey's Mind: The Madness Within
    Yeah horror/comedy is going to be difficult. I think the comedy is more in just side general things that will happen in the story the things that don't exactly matter towards the plot exactly. But the things dealing in plot itself and specific characters will have that serious horror-esk aspect to it. Thank you for the input and I like that title: Zoey's Mind: The Madness Within. I'll have to put it on my list as well. ^.^
  2. @Noctis Oooh, I like this. It kinda reminds me of Shadows of the Colossus for some reason.

    The plot to my current project is pretty much one big think piece on how movements for equality can have their spirits forgotten as the movement is misinterpreted/demonized/misused. The following is quite long and has a lot of spoilers, but I want to be sure if the story's argument is very balanced and if the message is getting across.

    Just Me

    Action-Adventure

    Gilda is one of the seven princesses of the country of Lanaylan, as well as a victim of frequent kidnappings by various villains and subject of rescue by Vinnie, her kingdom’s most beloved knight/adventurer. Gilda is unhappy with the cycle, yet doesn’t ponder the idea of changing it until a kidnapping goes horribly wrong. While being kept in a prison, lightning strikes nearby stables, resulting in a fire Gilda has to save herself from and her meeting Vinnie in front of the fort as he arrives to save her, Gilda having defeated several minions to get there. Despite the event being written off as a fluke, Gilda is inspired to learn how to defend herself, as to keep kidnapping from being as frequent. (She argues that Vinnie wouldn’t have to interrupt his adventuring to save her.)

    Gilda’s father and his adviser try to discourage her, supposedly on the grounds that she would get hurt during training, but Gilda persists. Vinnie, however, proposes that Gilda continue with her goal, as well as meeting with the other princesses of the kingdom to propose the idea. The king becomes mortified at the idea and demands to speak with Vinnie in private. After the conversation, the king is apparently convinced and give his daughter his blessings, provided that she make the journey alone and without any royal funds (save for buying armor, a weapon, and a few supplies).

    Gilda agrees with these terms and, after preparing herself, leave her kingdom’s borders to venture into the five other domains (which the player can visit in any order they want). Along the way, she occasionally encounters Vinnie or Roberto, Vinnie’s quiet and less-popular brother/fellow-knight/sidekick. Gilda also finds statues of a woman throughout the country, which heal her and allow the player to save their game. She also encounters various, seemingly ordinary/staple slime monsters that get larger/more numerous with every dungeon she beats.

    (And now, the whole story)

    Spoiler
    In the earthen valleys of Gnomen, Gilda meets with Princess Amber, who more or less has her head knight Jasper do the talking for her. Jasper, treating Gilda’s idea as a sham, challenges her to clear the infestation of zombies/undead creatures in the kingdom’s mines. As Gilda ventures through the mines, she finds a pair of metal slippers that allows her to crush rocks/enemy’s armor/so on and eventually finds the reason of the infestation- the mine unknowingly shares its territory with a massive, hidden crypt built within the mountain. The remains of a necromancer who was interred there became reanimated by “some dark force that recently made itself known” and in turn raised the zombies. Gilda defeats the necromancer’s remains, but is angrily rebuked by Jasper “for doing his job for him” and not recognizing his challenge as an apparent joke.

    In the dense forests of Draydea, Princess Lillian appears to be very supportive of Gilda’s idea and proposes that she solve the Ordeal Grove, a labyrinth once used to test knights, and ring the bell within it, as to provide morale to the movement. Within the labyrinth, Gilda finds a harp that shoots arrow-like sound waves and completes the dungeon’s three tests. In the end, she defeats the final test- a golem designed to test the knight’s combative skills- and rings the bell. Upon meeting with Lillian, Gilda discovers that the forest princess had mistaken her mission as dominating over knights and uses Gilda’s movement as a means of acting on her (Lillian’s) disliking of them.

    In  the river delta of Undeem, Gilda meets with one of two of the kingdom’s princesses- River. River explains that her younger sister Rain has been recently-abducted by a disgruntled mystic named Leon and is currently being held at the area’s former palace, which had been abruptly abandoned for an unknown reason centuries before. River and her knights- Ren and Len- appear to support Gilda’s movement and propose that Gilda venture to the palace, wherein they’ll meet her later. Gilda ventures into the palace and finds a compact mirror that turns her into a shadow in what appears to be a hidden training room. Gilda saves Rain from Leon, who flees for the time being. Rain proves to be helpful when traversing the dungeon and Gilda eventually meets up with her after being stalked by what appears to be a patch of dark water in a sewer way. Just as Gilda and Rain get to the entrance, River arrives and is captured by Leon, prompting Gilda to rescue her. Like Rain, River accompanies Gilda throughout the dungeon, but is far less helpful/competent than her sister. In the end, Leon falls into the dark water that stalked Gilda and is turned into a hideous monster she defeats, Leon being reverted back into a human and reduced to a terrified, catatonic state. In the fallout of the event, River is denied immediate training, to which accuses her knights of discriminating her because she’s a princess. Ren tries to explain that it’s due to her lack of talent, citing that Rain will likely be trained due to her skill, but is promptly silenced. This results in Len dismissing Gilda’s movement and urging Ren to do the same, while River voices her support, it being clear she’s only in it for the glory.

    In the volcanic planes of Salamand, Gilda encounters Boss Crimson Goblin, the leader of the minions who abducted her in the beginning of the game. Eventually, Gilda meets with Princess Scarlet and her knight, Ruben. Scarlet supports Gilda’s idea, while Ruben is skeptical of it (though he treats her views respectfully). Hearing that Boss Crimson Goblin is in the area and has settled in a nearby abandoned fortress, Ruben ventures out to evict them, but fails to return and results in Gilda venturing out to see what happened. Within the fortress, Gilda finds that Boss Crimson Goblin, suffering a sudden change in personality, turned against his men and began brutalizing/terrorizing/caging them. Upon freeing his men one by one, they explain that the personality change occurred after a drop of dark liquid landed on his head when entering the fortress and that he has Ruben hostage, wanting to lure Gilda into his clutches and kill her. Find the dungeon’s treasure, a bracelet that summons fireballs that circle around her, Gilda challenges Boss Crimson Goblin, who she appears to knock out before he awakens and charges her again. However, using the last of his freewill to break whatever control is over him, Boss Crimson Goblin warns Gilda of his mental parasite’s intentions and, to save Gilda/Ruben/his men, jumps into a lava pit to sacrifice his own life. As the duo leaves the dungeon, Ruben realizes what he went through is what a princess typically does. Though Gilda thinks that this will simply allow him to see things differently, Ruben misinterprets it as meaning that the knights “are the bad guys.” Gilda and Scarlet tries to explain that that’s not the case, by Ruben only listens to his guilt.

    In the snowy mountains of Sylephy, Gilda meets with the head knight- Felix- and is surprised to learn that he’s already teaching the area’s princess- Diamanda- to defend herself. Enthusiastic to meet the princess, Gilda is told to head to a nearby tower that’s used to store artifacts, where Diamanda went to check on “some family heirloom or something” as she often does. Gilda ventures through the tower, finding a scarf that allows her to bound over pits, and encounters Diamanda, who explains that the tower had very recently become the subject of poltergeist activity. Reluctantly, Diamanda allows Gilda to follow her, provided that she keep what happens there a secret. Eventually, Gilda fights and defeats the poltergeist haunting the tower- a hooded figure that urges Gilda to “stop this and save herself” before vanishing. Diamanda reveals that she lied to Felix about checking on a family heirloom, and uses her visits to the tower to get away from training and “relax like a princess normally would” (having tea, reading, so on). Though Diamanda expresses gratefulness at her opportunities to defend herself, she prefers the spiritual duties/luxurious lifestyle of a princess as opposed to the combative one of a knight. She also expresses her worries that such a preference would hinder progress, which are concerns Gilda herself can’t sate.

    Every dungeon’s treasure is found at the base of a tablet that has all but one part rubbed out, each tablet combined telling a complete story. The story itself is about an unknown woman who upset the status quo of the country, resulting in a clash between her group and the knights of the country. What happens in the second-to-last part of the story isn’t revealed, but the story ends with the country finding peace again.

    After completing the dungeons, the princesses/knights of the country meet up at Gilda’s castle. What was supposed to be a diplomatic/peaceful discussion becomes an argument, which upsets a mentally-exhausted Gilda and has her retire to her room, Vinnie being able to sate the argument. Vinnie meets with Gilda and assumes she’ll stop her mission, only to have Gilda expresses hope in her idea and will continue on, despite how hard the journey has become. To Gilda’s surprise, Vinnie rebukes this, revealing his actual unsupportive nature to Gilda’s idea and explaining that the only reason he supported it in the first place was his belief that Gilda would give up and quit on her own. (This was also how he convinced the king to allow his daughter to start her journey, as well as the fact that he was actually shadowing Gilda the whole time alongside Roberto.)

    Gilda, Vinnie, and Roberto are called by the king and the advisor to a secret chamber that contains an intact tablet that reveals the rest of the story. The mutual anger/outrage of the woman’s group and the knights created a monster that absorbed the woman, the act placating it and allowing people to seal it away. The king explains that every time the balance between knights and princesses are challenged, the monster awakens and can only be sealed if either the status quo is restored or if the person who causes the social disruption is absorbed by it. Gilda disbelieves this, until she realizes that the slime monsters were actually extensions of the monster and that it was the cause of most of the problems she encountered (Boss Crimson Goblin’s corruption, the necromancer awakening, the haunting in the tower, and Leon’s mutation). She’s further horrified when she discovers that the treasures she discovered in dungeons weren’t merely magic objects, but possessions of princesses the monster previously absorbed. The king and the adviser explain that such knowledge was kept a secret to give people the illusion of having a freedom of choice (as well as to keep them from knowing that an unkillable monster lives beneath their feet). Now seeing that her life is in danger, Gilda formally ends her mission to calm the feuding kingdoms/groups, but voices her despair of being trapped in the cycle she despised so.

    That night, Gilda ventures to her castle’s library, finding herself drawn to looking up information on the monster. The ghosts of the dungeon treasures’ owner appear to her, revealing the monster to be called “the Misos” and that it’s actually contained in the castle’s catacombs. A calamity begins within the castle, it being discovered that Vinnie and Roberto had ventured into the catacombs to confront the monster. Wanting to save her knights, Gilda sneaks into the catacombs and encounters Boss Crimson Goblin’s minions, who help Gilda prepare to confront the monster that ruined/killed their leader. Gilda ultimately encounters Vinnie, who reveals that he’s only there to save Roberto, who had ventured in alone. Roberto himself explains that he wanted to kill the monster and help Gilda, himself agreeing with Gilda’s intentions and seeing them for what they really are. Vinnie rebukes this, his anger/malice awakening the Misos more than Gilda was ever able and having it break through its seal and pull Gilda and Vinnie within its blob-like mass.

    Gilda awakens within the Misos and finds herself in front of a healing/saving statue, which reveals itself to be the remaining essence of the original princess that challenged the system. Moved by Gilda telling the statue her journey (the player saving), the princess tells her that she might be able to weaken the Misos enough to destroy it. Fighting her way through the Misos’s dungeon-body, Gilda is able to free the essence of the previous princesses, whose spirits confront the present day rulers of their domains and correct their misconceptions. In the end, Gilda confronts the heart of the Misos, which had binded itself to Vinnie. With Roberto’s help, Gilda is able to defeat Vinnie/the Misos, splitting the two. While Roberto tends to his brother, Gilda confronts the Misos’s heart (which takes the form of a male version of Gilda) in his cage. Rather than fight, Gilda talks to it, the heart slowly opening up to her and realizing that it’s current condition is similar to that of what a princess typically suffers. Seeing the futility of its own existence, the Misos vanishes, thanking Gilda and wishing her well.

    The denouement has Lanayalan’s leaders/knights reevaluating their actions/the system, the player being able to freely roam Lanaylan. Should the player enter Gilda’s room, they will be confronted by Vinnie’s main enemy, who had been on vacation and is unaware of the events that transpired in the country. The overlord goes to abduct Gilda, the credits rolling just moments after he ponders why Gilda’s wearing armor/holding a weapon and is attacked by her.
  3. Well here's my idea for my the game I plan on making. I hope it sounds cool.

    Chip Gigowski [Mild Religion Warning]

    Chip Gigowski is a game I'm gonna make VX Ace if I ever learn how to use it. Chip Gigowski is a Zelda like action game with some 3D/2D Platformer elements thrown in. My main inspirations for this game are the classic MegaMan series, Link to the Past, Shovel Knight, Battle for Bikini Bottom, Ducktales, (the game not the show) and Super Mario 64. My game Chip Gigowski is about a world where the Internet is a real place with many different places you can visit and live in like the show Cyberchase. The game stars Chip Gigowski who the game is named after. His name is a pun on microchip and gigabyte pretty cool. Chip Gigowski is a 44 year old man who has done nothing with his life and is sad. One day Chip finds out that his nephew Mike has been kidnapped by an evil hacker that has trapped him in a castle in the internet. When Chip finds out what happened to his nephew Mike he goes on a quest to find him. On Chip's quest he has to collect the 12 fruits which are hidden throughout the game and guarded by certain bosses. These fruits are similar to the 8 melodies in earthbound. More things about Chip's quest to find Mike is that the evil hacker guy has hired 8 trolls with their own stages, boss fights, weapons, and themes similar to how Mega Man and Shovel Knight had the whole knight and robot thing going on. The 8 trolls are Squiggle Troll, USB Troll, Elephant Troll, Hydro Troll, Math Troll, Dalmatian Troll, Tactician Troll, and Dream Troll. In the game their are also 3 of Mike's internet friends who you can play as in certain parts of the game similar to Battle for Bikini Bottom. Mike's friends want to help Chip on his quest to find Mike. There also 7 pets you can find in the game they are inspired by the dogs from PAW Patrol with their own abilities and themes. These pets work similar to the party members in the Paper Mario series, they help you solve puzzles and find items and treasure. This game has a lot of treasure and hidden areas similar to DuckTales and Shovel Knight. You can switch which pet you want to use similar in the Paper Mario series. Other than the plot that I gave you this game has some Catholic themes. A few months ago in September and October I was studying for my confirmation which gave me these ideas. The 12 fruits of the holy spirit are similar to the 8 melodies from Earthbound. The 7 pets also represent the 7 gifts of the holy spirit. The religious themes in the game won't be too much the games gonna focus more on fun rather than teaching christian values similar to VeggieTales. I will talk more about my project in detail if people seem to like it. Keep in mind things could change.
  4. @162 That sounds extremely long winded, but I like the idea of several princesses in a game.   But why are there several princesses in a single land?  That makes me curious...

    ------------------------------------------------


    Allow me to introduce my concept I'm currently working on:

    One night, a tired, overworked and chronically insomniac man--desperately wishing for a good night's sleep--saw a dragonfly perch on his windowsill. It was taking refuge from the intense summer night's heat in the cool breeze. The young man stared intently at the glowing creature, the little guy staring right back at him, as if it knew what was going on. As the dragonfly fanned itself, its unearthly glow lulled the man to sleep and he began to dream...

    The game takes over as you controlling the dragonfly.
    Again, this is NOT an RPG nor ADVENTURE game, so this may not appeal to everyone.
    The gameplay is pretty simple. You have several worlds in the game and in each world are several levels and a few unlockable bonus levels.
    You start at the beginning of each level (which will take you through different areas, including 2D sidescroller-type areas) and end at each level' goal. (I'm trying to find a scorekeeping system, if it exists in MV, I may make the jump from Ace. )

    You can fly over water, small gaps and such. The CATCH, though, is that you lose energy as you fly (much more when flying over water, gaps, or too high)... and when you run out of energy, you must restart the level. (You don't die here. Again, it's an easy, relaxing, hopefully calming game with soft music, ASMR-type sound effects, easy graphics and smooth gameplay)

    To replenish your energy, you eat small bugs and plants.

    Now, here's the idea I had for the story after the game started. Very simple.
    Dragonfly is a spirit creature sent to give the gift of sleep to tired, overworked or just plain fatigued... As it journeys across the lands, it encounters various creatures of the forest, mountainside, high desert, plains, oceanside and more.
    Dragonfly manages to help the other creatures as well. But what can a tiny little dragonfly that doesn't even talk do?

    You'd be surprised by how your mere presence can affect someone else, whether for the better or for the worse. Also, everyone on this planet needs energy to survive. As dragonfly, you'd be able to take salt to certain animals who need it to survive... perhaps some water. Who knows?

    I'd like to have a system with a score, tallied depenng any small bugs you squashed or food sources collected.

    This is all I care to divulge at the moment. Feedback is welcome. Suggestions are welcome. I will   take in advice.

    Thanks for reading!
  5. Gah! The spoiler tags stopped working! I don't think they shifted over during the design change! :o


    @Saltwater Croc Yeah. It's really long...I wouldn't have posted all that normally, but I wanted to make sure the argument is balanced and the theme of the story is properly explored. Regarding the multiple princesses, I actually thought this through (because I'm basically OCD with in-game logic/political systems). The country is divided into several domains that a royal family governs. (At this point, I'm thinking the country itself is ruled by a committee of multiple royal families that work among themselves like congress, settling on various decisions by way of compromise/voting.) Basically the same reason any given fantasy world has more than one royal family.


    As for your idea, it sounds very interesting! A lovely premise! I'll definitely keep an eye out for it! I'm curious, though- what do you mean by different worlds? Do you mean different areas of the land? Different realms? if it's a secret, that's cool.
  6. @162 different regions/lands.  In many platformer games, each level (stage) are clustered several to a themed "world" (land/region) and the player will advance through the levels in numerical order.  This game will be like a cross between a platformer and a 2.5D gam. (I might go with top-down... not sure yet)


    I hope that helps explain a little more... :)
  7. @Super Shy Gamer Girl


    Without knowing more I can't give an adequate response to the plot itself.  It would entirely depend on how well developed you made the characters and twists involved.  I can see where comedy and horror can be mixed; look at something like Alan Wake.  It has horror but also has plenty of funny moments between, even arguably during in a few places (like when you're fighting the Taken at the old farm and Barry's chattering about how he never knew how good classic rock was).


    As for titles...it all starts with her blacking out drunk and then awaking to extreme horrors, and it has a mix of horror and comedy to it.  How about...?


    The Grinning Darkness
  8. @Saltwater Croc Ah, yes it does! I just needed to get into the platformer mindset. :)
  9. Dickjutsu said:
    @Super Shy Gamer Girl


    Without knowing more I can't give an adequate response to the plot itself.  It would entirely depend on how well developed you made the characters and twists involved.  I can see where comedy and horror can be mixed; look at something like Alan Wake.  It has horror but also has plenty of funny moments between, even arguably during in a few places (like when you're fighting the Taken at the old farm and Barry's chattering about how he never knew how good classic rock was).


    As for titles...it all starts with her blacking out drunk and then awaking to extreme horrors, and it has a mix of horror and comedy to it.  How about...?


    The Grinning Darkness



    Thanks for the input. Because of the story I don't know if 'The Grinning Darkness' would be right for a title. It's more that she thinks she got blackout drunk the night prior for not recalling what happened. That's something that would be learned through the game.


    As for the humor it's supposed to be more in general aspects of the world around the player rather then a main focus, the narration portrayed through the quirky sense of humor some characters will have. How some characters are as people and just some oddball things that happen. It's going to be more of a transition into horror type of game and depending on the player choices how far it really goes or how bad it gets. Basically the choices you make, even if they seem unimportant will hold some level of input to how the game plays. There will be some battle system elements but the types and what skills used or acquired I want to be based off of choices as well rather then a normal leveling system that most games do. (I have NO clue how I'm gonna do that yet or if I can with my level of skill or rather LACK there of >.> But hey, Gotta have goals right?)


    This game programming is mostly being developed out of me learning different aspects through RMMV to bring to a game and learning how the program works. It's all in order to learn how to bring together elements I want for the 'real' game I want to make which is based off of a story myself and my Husband have been working on. We were writing a book, but then decided making it into a game would be a much better way to tell the story and bring people in to the world itself. Yet the perfectionist in me wants this mini game (As I like to call it) to be a fun game as well even if it's supposed to be a simple and short story. I have my hubby helping me with story aspects as I come to small blocks for this learning experience, and I have my brother helping with the music for it. I'm sorta responsible for the programming/art aspect of it. Programming I'm picking up somewhat decently but art.....well if anyone wants to lend help towards a non-profit game send me a message XD. Cause I really suck at parallax mapping, I'm getting a little better but I'm just not as artistic as I would hope to be when it comes to helping portray the visuals needed for slow fall into horror type game.
  10. just chiming in to say that i really like the "Zoey's Mind" title idea.  It definitely grabs me and would make me want to look at that world.  
  11. jonthefox said:
    just chiming in to say that i really like the "Zoey's Mind" title idea.  It definitely grabs me and would make me want to look at that world.  



    So do I, though I think it'll be more like "Zoey's Mind: Falling into Madness" for how the game is supposed to be. *nods*
  12. edit* read the front page post, genre is fantasy, inspiration is Xenoblade Chronicles x where plot points all add to the game, it doesn't have a real main story section, added a spoiler tag whether necessary for this or not


    My question is how much information is too much or too little for the introduction section for the game.


    With the current general lore for the game, i'm planning on spreading it through multiple books in the library section within the game however i'm unsure whether to include some of it in the introduction or not.


    The start of the game currently has the character be recruited the army, being seen as a viable candidate and is brought into the current dimension where the war is taking place, on that planet he trains and complete missions initially in areas that lie between the war itself and the city where the army is based.


    So basically the player isn't given any real context into the lore of the game currently besides books, notes left around the place, basically leaving all the games lore as an optional thing which is what i'm unsure on.


    The general lore which puts the game into context is the following:

    Spoiler
    Spoiler





    "God once created several other races before humans even existed, wiping them all out due to finding these animals imperfect. when God had told the human race to eliminate themselves, this was the first time any creature had turned their backs on their creator. As god is not allowed to interfere with the planet physically after the foundations have been set, he proceeded to create a race that was once again in an isolated dimension however, this was no longer his attempt at perfection. These creatures were born with the following properties:


    - They are born with an extreme bloodlust


    - They are created in a way where the only food they find edible is human mean


    The basics is that these creatures need to kill humans in order to survive and so were quickly given access to the dimension the humans currently resided at once the foundations for their dimension had been set. Humans have now been driven back through portals which were the only method for creatures to transport between dimensions along with the wildlife that was originally created to support their life who have since been freed and mutated constantly into several variations over the course of thousands of years. Humans current reside on the last livable dimension for their kind, their current goal is pushing back the enemy through dimensions against gods will and to eventually eliminate their kind in order to not be wiped out."





    So yeah any help in deciding if any of this should be added to the introduction or if i should keep the introduction minimal and allow players to find this information themselves from other sources within the game i am thankful for ._.
  13. Hey everyone, it's been a while. I find myself once again subjected to the typical 'self-deprecation' regarding storyboarding. 


    The central problems are the wholly farflung nature of the project I've concocted, and the floatiness and lack of centrality all of this has. It seems needlessly theoretical and derived from a series of abstractions that while ambitious on paper make for really generic and predictable tirades on colonialism and societal collapse. Pretty insecure about it all, but peer-review is generally a good thing for somebody like me without a single modicum of experience in this regard.


    ___


    The basic gist of the SETTING is that three planetary factions have invaded the planet on which the game takes place, Sern, for various and initially undisclosed reasons.


    - Moregnon was the first planet to perpetrate an invasion. Their strength lies in excellent human-resource organization and expert decision making owing to the psychological constitution of the Moregnonians. Being the first perpetrator, they play a rather large role.


    - Dolorm was the second to invade, and merely followed protocol in doing so. With their strength lying in research and information acquisition, their decision to invade was on the sole condition that another planet invaded Sern first. They are more enigmatic than Moregnon, and don't really strike you as either protagonists or antagonists. More a 'presence'.


    - Ciphitas was the last to invade, and only because their loyalty to the Federation, the galactic 'central government' compelled them to do so. Since the Federation would have trouble establishing an immediate presence on Sern, Ciphitas went there to balance out Moregnon's presence. 


    The Federation in turn is a 4 quadrant system which regulates the known galaxy. The invasion took place in  strict violation of policy, and they are another presence on the planet in addition to the aformentioned three. A long-standing force, the Federation is a motley crew, with a variety of different operators, some sympathetic, others bellicose or otherwise threatening. 


    Sern itself is therefore caught in the midst of a dramatic shift. The presence of otherworldly life was previously a mere fantasy. With a new generation of individuals on Sern, old cultural norms and values are not entirely dissipated- but refiltered through the new political scenario: E.G. Rather than 'country' affiliation, affiliations are to planets or larger entities and so forth. Many of the older folk on Sern are tormented by the rapidity of change that has occurred in light of the invasion. Even the Federation which is putatively sympathetic to Sern does not ameliorate the scenario. For the elderly, there has been a collective loss of identity and understanding.


    Resultantly, the project's title as of now is the rather half-baked Project Paradigm, and my goal is to have a lore/world-building on par with a title like Trails in the Sky in the long run. 


    There is much more to the lore that I do not deign to divulge at the moment. My central problems are in protagonist construction and so forth. I'm taking my time with this however so that I can let ideas settle effectively. 


    Oh, and if anybody wants to bother me about this with advice for protagonists or anything, I'm willing to hear you out via private message. 
  14. Attack Of The Axis


    The Axis of evil are getting together to rule the world! The Lord of Holidays has vanished, so the most evil characters around are working together to take over.


    The axis consists of:

    Spoiler
    A murderous robot that loves teddy bears, and doesn't understand love.
    Spoiler
    A bumbling evil-in-training fire user that doesn't really know what he's doing yet.
    Spoiler
    A murderous ogre that just wants to kill, kill, and kill.
    Spoiler
    A skeletal secretary who's second in command on the holiday takeover project.
    Spoiler
    A mysterious leader, who seems to have a lot of dark power.
    Spoiler
    And Hitler. Literally Hitler.



    The main characters are:

    Spoiler
    A standard hero, that knows he's a standard hero, and is trying so hard to be more than that.


    Spoiler
    An idiot that seems like comic releaf, but is actually quite strong, and such a likeable fellow.
    Spoiler
    And a smartass ninja that doesn't mix well with the idiot, and proves for some very interesting dialog exchange.



    The player has to go through each town learning the Axis' secrets and trying to save the holidays! The game is going to be in chapter form, so we can release them over the course of the year around the date's of the holidays! It's a standard RPG that knows it's a standard RPG, just like our main character. Pop culture references, fourth wall breaks, and all sorts of rediculous humor are included in this game. It's going to make you laugh, I promise.



  15. Well I figured that it was time to put (virtual) pen to paper and put down here what I'm planning and some rough plot and character outlines...


    The game I'm starting work on is called "Shadow Destiny" - it's an RPG with some fairly overt Visual Novel overtones.


    It's a coming-of-Age tale in part, as well as a story of redemption, and of personal triumph; it touches on friendship and perseverance. At least that's how I'm seeing it at the moment.


    TITLE CARD - (placeholder):

    Spoiler



    PLOT:


    Very short version: Kell is a young woman who, upon turning 18 starts to experience strange and unsettling dreams. These dreams, and her quest to understand them, lead her on a journey of self-discovery and force her to face challenges that will test her humanity and the friendships of those around her; tied up in this is the disappearance of her father and her own personal journey to find him once again and to understand whether his disappearance is linked to the changes that are taking place within her...


    Longer plot outline for the first section:

    Spoiler
    -SHADOW DESTINY-


    PLOT OUTLINE - part 1


    • Upon turning 18, Kell, who lives on a farm, begins having unsettling dreams.

    • Her parents tell her that the answer to these dreams may lie in a book once owned by her grandfather.

    • The book is currently in the hands of Kell's aunt, in the port city of Jasper, capital of the kingdom of Retante.

    • Kell's father offers to take her partway, to a coaching inn, from where she can get passage to the city.

    • They are waylaid by bandits before reaching the inn and Kell is forced to hide in a nearby cave. Her father is taken by the bandits.

    • Following a night of further strange visions, Kell explores the cave, noticing a sealed doorway at the back of it.

    • She is discovered by Noster, a young caravan escort based at the coaching inn. He rescues her and takes her to the inn, as it is closer than her home and she may find information as to where her father has been taken.

    • She does not, but she overhears a conversation that implies that the attack on the road was no accident. Unsettled by this and fearing there is more to the attack than simple banditry, she decides that she must return home to her mother.

    • Noster convinces her not to, the road is too dangerous and besides, what if there is a connection? She said so herself. Still conflicted, Kell agrees, but on condition that Noster sends one of his closest friends, Jakob, back west to look after Kell's mother.

    • Noster agrees, and insists on accompanying Kell to Jasper, although he is evasive when she asks him why he wants to.

    • The dreams are coming more often now, and Kell suffers another night of restless sleep. In the morning she heads out east along the highway with Noster. The two day journey is fairly uneventful, although the camp they make at a ruined temple the day before arriving at Jasper reveals more mysteries to Kell. She asks Noster about the strange cave he found her in, and the locked door, but he won't talk to her about it, saying only that it has remained shut for as long as he can remember, and to the best of his knowledge no one has ever been through it.

    • Kell is beginning to suspect that Noster knows more than he is letting on, and additionally that he is attracted to her, as he seems very eager to look after her on the road. Also, he does not seem surprised at the dreams she has had, nor at what happened during the night at the stones...

    • Further evidence that all is not as it seems however, occurs in a canyon not far from Jasper, where the two are beside by creatures from the wilds. Kell suddenly starts to recite a spell in an unknown language, following which there is a mighty flash and the once the smoke clears the creatures are dead, and Kell has fainted. Noster brings her round, but she has no clear idea or memory of what happened.

    • They arrive at Jasper and Noster takes Kell to see Sora at the Four Hands Inn, down by the waterfront. Kell wastes no time in bringing Sora up to date with all that has happened, although she leaves the part with her wanting to know about the book until after Noster has left - he says he has some tasks to perform, but that he will be back later.

    • Kell tells Sora about the book, and Sora says that she has it in the cellar of the Inn, hidden away to keep it safe. Sora's father, Kell's grandfather, had always told her to keep it hidden, he said it was a thing of Power, and should be treated as such. Sora tells Kell that Kell can go and look at it but she must not try to read it until Sora has joined her, as only Sora knows how to unlock the book.

    • Kell heads downstairs to the cellar and finds the book, hidden behind some old barrels. She takes the book out and lays it upon the floor of the Inn, waiting for Sora to join her. Suddenly the book unlocks itself and falls open on a page full of strange symbols and writing that she cannot decipher.

    • Kell looks more closely, trying to see what the writing says when suddenly the is a bright flash, the ground shakes and she feels a terrible sensation of falling. Everything goes black and Kell loses consciousness.

    • Hearing the commotion, Sora rushes into the cellar accompanied by Noster, who has just arrived, to find that Kell has quite disappeared and that the book itself is now blank on the pages that Kell was looking at.

    • Noster takes the book to his real employer, Radugar, a wizard of some renown. Radugar had originally sent Noster to the Inn as he had foretold that Kell, or at least the person who turned out to be Kell, would be travelling to it. Noster's job was to safely escort Kell to Radugar's residence just outside the city, after she had collected the book.

    • Radugar is angry with Noster for failing to keep Kell safe, and for allowing her to read and thus trigger the teleport spell that was written on the pages that Kell had been looking at when she disappeared. He tells Noster that he must go to find Kell and bring her back whilst he himself examines the book and tries to piece together the events of the last few days and what the knows of Kell and her story.

    • Noster asks Radugar where he thinks that Kell may be. Radugar tells Noster that he fears that she may have been carried to Knysse, the city in mountains to the west ruled over by Zildus, a wizard of great and dark power. It is likely, thinks Radugar, that Zildus also knows of Kell and the nascent power she holds within her. It may even have been his voice that she has been hearing...

    End of Part 1



    As I see it the game will have multiple parts - potentially 4, during which the player will experience the tale from the point of view of Kell, and Noster, with the other main characters revolving around those two, both independently and in a party setting.


    I'm not necessarily seeing a huge amount of combat, although there will be some - it will be contextual however and not simply there for the sake of it. I'm looking more at narrative and setting to tell the tale and hook the player.


    BASIC CHARACTER & LOCATION OUTLINES:

    Spoiler
    MAIN CHARACTERS


    • KELL VALLESSE: (F18) - a seemingly ordinary young woman living with her parents on a farm to start with. She turns out to have powers that she's not initially fully aware of, and certainly does not understand. Her rejection of these powers places her and the world in great danger.
      She is slim, with long black hair and, unusually, green eyes. Sheltered and a little naive, she has a good heart and a searching and inquisitive nature. She is often to be found looking up into the night sky and peering under rocks and into caves.

    • NOSTER KAMARLE: (M21) - a young warrior, initially from the south who meets up with and befriends Kell following the attack on Kell and her father and his subsequent disappearance. He takes on the role of her protector, but later, paradoxically, is also assigned to hunt her down and capture her. It turns out that there was more to him finding her after the attack than first appeared, and that his true employer is not actually the Inn of Cruces' caravanserai.
      Noster is fairly and short and stocky, though muscular from his time as a soldier. He has red hair and green eyes. He comes across as quite stern initially, but underneath this outward demeanor he is actually a bit of a romantic. He is an orphan.

    • RADUGAR: (M53) - a wizard. He has foreseen Kell's potential and tries to teach her to harness and control her powers, for the greater good. He initially meets with little success and Kell rejects him, turning instead to The Shadow: Zildus - whose castle she had previously been unwillingly transported to.
      Radugar comes across as rather bumbling and forgetful, although this is really just an act. He is considerably more subtle and powerful than he prefers to let on...

    • ZILDUS: (M??) - an ancient warlock of mighty power, holds sway over a dark, western kingdom in the mountains. He is interested in Kell's powers as well, though for use as his own, though there is another reason that even Kell is not aware of, when our story starts...

    • JALENA M'ZENDY: (F30) – An Elf and Zildus' second-in-command. She is completely faithful to him and carries out his commands to the letter. She is a powerful warrior in her own right.

    OTHER CHARACTERS


    1. King Volnus: king of Retante

    2. Deukis Vallesse: Kell's father

    3. Latya Vallesse: Kell's mother

    4. Sora Bennethe: innkeeper in the city of Jasper and Latya's sister, she holds THE BOOK

    5. Dennis: a soldier

    6. Kensis: a traveling merchant

    7. Anna: a priest in the church in Jasper

    8. River Guardian: a holy being dwelling in The Chamber of Light

    MAIN LOCATIONS


    • RETANTE: A small eastern kingdom ruled over by King Volnus. It borders the ocean on its eastern side and mountains to the north. In the south of the kingdom there are deserts with strange and ancient ruins in them, whilst moving to the north the countryside becomes greener and more fertile. Kell's parents' farm was located to the north, at the foot of the mountains.

    • JASPER: A port city in Retante and also the Kingdom's capital. Sora the innkeeper lives here, who is Kell's mother's sister.

    • KNYSSE: Capital city of Zildus' western Empire. Located by a huge, deep lake whose bottom is rumoured to house a strange and ancient ruin of vast proportions. Out of necessity, Knysse has trade relations with cities on the plains to its east, but few from there ever visit it.

    • THE INN OF CRUCES: An inn partway between Kell's parents' farm and Jasper. Notable in this story for being the inn that Kell and her father were heading for when they were waylaid by bandits.

    • THE CHAMBER OF LIGHT: A mysterious hollow deep within a cave system to the south of Retante. Kell and Radiger visit it in order to converse with the River Guardian.



    It is my intention to use as far as possible original assets, including photographs - I'm new to game creation so it'll be a good and satisfying challenge for me, as well as, I hope, something enjoyable and also satisfying for the player.


    ------


    (25\02\16) - removed references to monsters as:

    1. They weren't that great
    2. They aren't going to be included in the end game



    (05/02/16) - Update:

    1. Started planning out maps for the development: (World map, Retante map, Kell environment maps).
    2. Looking at textures - new ones and also modify the default ones.



    (07/02/16) - Update:


    Been working on my new homemade textures and really pleased with the way they are going, actually. :)


    Current Design Goals:

    Spoiler
    • Design NPCs for the towns, wandering merchants, and bandits
    • Sort through 3rd party resources - monsters, scripts: (Yanfly)
    • Finish off and tidy homemade tilesheets and create the (initial) tilesets from\with them
    • Some final tweaking of concepts in the test game



    (17/02/16) - Update:


    First proper map underway and intro sequence completed. :)


    I'm thinking I'm getting close to moving from here to a more "I'm actually doing a project" forum section!! :D Still working on homemade textures, I'm particularly pleased with the grass at the moment.


    Also I'm exploring the possibilities of the Luna Engine and looking into how best to implement combat in the game. I've been playing a lot of Ys Chronicles lately so I am wondering about that...


    Other than that I have more and better plot ideas as well for later in the game, which is all good...


    I'll update this post as I progress, until I'm able to move it elsewhere! :)


    (20/02/16) - Update:


    I'm working on the first map, which is the external view for Kell's parents farmhouse, I'm using it in part as a test bed to make sure that I have my textures and sounds and whatnot at least initially sorted out.


    I'm trying to use, as far as possible, my own Tiles and sounds and icons, and also modified versions of the RTP, I really like how it's turning out so far...


    The plot is coming along really nicely as are the details now, I have some nice ideas involving Fire-Sprites which I am feeling pretty good about. I've also been looking into getting to grips with the Luna Engine, so that's pretty exciting too. :)


    (25\02\16) - Update:


    Finished most of the work on my external tiles, and amended all the tinting and also added in some further switches and dialog to the beginning section. I'm really pleased with the look now I have had some time to work on it. I've made some changes to the message backgrounds as well.





    I have some tidying up of the animated tiles to do and then I can work on dialog and actual gameplay - or at least the basics. Initial setup has given me the chance to write up the early part of the story and bed-down Kell's dialog rather more.


    Also on my list - (which never seems to get any smaller!) - is a new title card, as the one here is a bit of a placeholder, if I'm honest, and some other character designs. I'm also looking at doing some parallaxes for water, that I can use in place of the animated tiles...
  16. Every fantasy world has its creation story detailing how the world came about. I spent over half my week writing and re-writing the birth of the world of Astroch, and I think I finally came up with a system that works. I wanted to post it here and get some feedback on it. In a nutshell, the world is comprised of the Six Domains of Order, ruled over by their respective Aspect. They came to a far off, desolate plane of existence and shaped it in accordance with these domains. Note that this is a rough draft and subject to changes and proofreading corrections. 


    "Before the time of man there was an ancient land of fire, ash, and stone; shrouded in eternal night. No living soul graced its molten surface and not a single plant grew from the inert stone. One day, the Aspects emerged from beyond the horizon, born of the night. Each carried the essence of Order. Together, they cleansed the ravaged world, shaping great mountains; bringing forth fertile soil and transforming the molten rivers into the flowing waters of life. From the remnants of the ash came mankind, given with free will, emotion, and the desire to control. Within each burned a minute spark, a soul that embodied each of the Six Domains.


    The Aspects governed the cosmic Domains of Order:Life, Death, Light, Darkness, Creation, and Destruction. Each ruled over their respective domain, and formed a balance. In accordance with Order, the human race were given distinct qualities by each Aspect.



    Zeline, the Breath of Life, gave humanity conscience, law, discipline, and emotion so that they would care for one another and live righteously. She gave the world's riverbeds water and the skies rain so that all living things could flourish.


    Ikhael, the Hand of Death, cursed humans with short lifespans and naturally frail bodies that are susceptable to disease, famine, and thirst. 


    Arius, the Sword of Light, created the sun to light Astroch and banish the darkness. By its light, humans felt invigorated and pleased,  plants flourished from its nurturing warmth.


    Vella, the Eye of Darkness, gave humans  free will, cunning, deception, ambition, hatred, and lust. She also created the cycle of night and the moon, so that humans would be fearful of the Dark's many secrets. 


    Haelach, the Hammer of Creation, bestowed the gift of erudition and the desire to control the natural world. Humans used their intelligence to create societies, construct great cities, and master the elements around them to forge metal, produce crops, tame animals, weave cloth, and work stone. 


    Utarr, the Flame of Destruction, brought fire to the humans. He twisted their minds, inciting hostility, malice, arrogance, rage, and war. Utarr was also responsible for bringing about severe weather. Floods, wildfires, snowstorms, thunderstorms, earthquakes, and volcanic activity.


    As a final gift the Aspects gave the humans thaumaturgy, the power to manipulate the Domains of Order. Through rigorous training and study, humans could tap into the natural forces of the world around them to work miracles of healing, enchant metal, conjure fire, kill, create, and destroy."
  17. My thread in the early project forum didn't get any hits, so I hope to get some feedback here.


    STORY AND GAMEPLAY


    Semi-whimsical maze game where you visit eight ancient kingdoms. You're a cow rustler who's cow eats a time-traveling fairy's wand, then gets stolen by a bandit, who uses the cow to go back to eight ancient kingdoms and take them over. The fairy asks you to get her wand and your cow back. In each kingdom, you need four keys from four mazes to open the emperor's palace, where you find the bandit and rescue the emperor from his control.


    Initially, the story went: you're a time-traveling pair of cow-folk, brother and sister, who rescue a fairy from the bandit. The fairy, in gratitude, will grant you a wish, but needs eight treasures form eight ancient kingdoms to catalyze its magic. So you'd you go back in time to get the treasures from four mazes in each kingdom, then return to the fairy to get your wish granted.


    Along the way, you could recruit NPCs and enemies in large armies, get ancient weapons and armor, barter with NPCs for gold and their clothing, play ancient board games, and haggle with item shop owners and even backrupt them - then take over the item shops and sell stuff to NPCs. I also want the combat's health system to be like Prince of Persia, with the menu simplicity of Final Fantasy X and the side view of the early 2D Final Fantasy games.


    As for enemy AI, I want them to act smart and have certain weaknesses and items. For example, when battling a fire-type Pokemon, I would get out a water-type Pokemon; or, when my Pokemon has low health, I would use an item to heal it. I want the enemies to be like that, maybe as triggers when the player does something or their health gets low.


    The mazes will all be different. One maze has arrows that push you around like in the Rocket Hideout, another maze has doors that lock behind you, and yet another maze includes an advancing wall of doom. I don't want each maze to just be a standalone gimmick, but I only have nine ideas so far. So I'm trying to think up new ways to do those ideas.


    I hate grinding, so I want the player to gain levels by doing tasks, talking with NPCs, and even killing enemies on screen with a certain item - like what Mario does with the Star in Mario RPG.


    Lastly, the game will include some humor, such as characters making fun of other characters, breaking the fourth wall, and other silly stuff like that.


    CHARACTERS


    This is as far as characterization goes. I don't have any background info or anything else fleshed out yet.


    Basilio Bandido: Martita's brother. Stronger, but slower.


    Martita Bandido: Basilio's sister. Faster, but weaker.


    Initially, on starting the game, you could choose one or the other, use both in battle, and switch between them on the map. In the new story, you only have Basilio.


    Llyod the Bartender: Owner of the Calico saloon, named after Llyod from The Shining. He introduces you to the game's items: alcoholic beverages.


    Jess, Seth and Coke: Poker players who introduce you to the concept of minigames.


    Biggie the Cow-Man: A weird guy in a cow suit who thinks he's a cow, inspired by Tingle.


    Steak and Cake: Two talking cows. Their names are puns on the words beefsteak and beefcake. Inspired by Earthworm Jim's cows.


    Miller the Killer: the bandit who kidnaps the fairy (in the new story, he steals your cow)


    LAST BUT NOT LEAST


    The story and characters aren't final. The only final thing is that you go back in time to the eight ancient kingdoms to solve the mazes.
  18. Here's the story without spoiling too much: In the world of Asroth there are numerous monster hunting guilds, who hunt and kill powerful beasts roaming the land. Their goal being to find and slay a Legendary Beast, but none has succeeded so far, causing some to question if Legendary Beasts are real. All these guilds are funded by the International Monster Hunting Corporation. But all this is done for a secret purpose, kept hidden from everyone's eyes, which some may see as noble, while some may not...


    Main Characters:


    FARl64x.png


    Vernon


    Age: 26


    Class: Techno-Mage


    Description: Profficient in both engineering and magic, Vernon is a person who cares about his friends and companions, but is utterly merciless to his enemies.


    EV2Dzg2.png


    Serena


    Age: 23


    Class: Warrioress


    Description: A tomboyish, confident and humorous warrioress, although reckless and stubborn.


    mgdFUKb.png


    Jacques


    Age: 29


    Class: Invoker


    Description: A kind and caring preacher, but not the bravest person around. Some may also see him as secretive.


    K17SDJj.png


    Nora


    Age: 24


    Class: Archer


    Description: A shrewd archer from a rival guild, who although may seem cold and distant at first glance, she can be extremely protective of those who earn her trust.
  19. Hi Everyone!


    This is my first of many posts, I hope :)


    Before I explain my idea note that I am a huge fan of RPG Games and specially Final Fantasy so my idea and conceptuality will be entirely inspired on FF games.


    I am early starting and my idea is on it's early development state.


    This is going to be an entirely non-commercial game that I am making for fun.


    Please give me any feedback/questions, even if you don't like it at all please let me know, as far as you have a fundamented reason for not liking it.


    Storyline:


    Every 50 years a group of 6 people (the chosen ones) from 6 different families of the Protector's Village are chosen to embark on a journey with the goal to become the next Protectors.


    For centuries the Protectors have been secretly protecting the World agains the League of Evil, a powerful organization that works in the shadows with the objective of overcome the World Government and rule the world forever in terror.


    It is time again for the new chosen ones to go on the protectors quest and become the new Protectors.


    Will they be able to finish his quest?


    Will the League of Evil be able to stop them from finishing their quest?


    Will they be the first Protectors able to defeat the League?


    Or will the League be finally able to rule the entire World?


    Entities:


    World Government and Government Forces - The World Government pocesses an elite army and police that rule the world and keeps the order on it's several cities and villages. The government is ellected democratically.


    The League of Evil - Powerful organization, ruled by Razor, that works in the shadows with the objective of rulling the World. 


    The Protectors - Elite team from The Village that secretly protects the world for centuries.


    Types of characters:


    Light warrior - an agile warrior that does not give strong blows but does not miss many times (when in battle he is always the first one to strike)


    Heavy warrior - a very strong, but slower, warrior that produces high damaging blows (might miss more often against more agile enemies)


    White Mage - a mage that is a master of healing, buffing and summoning


    Dark Mage - a mage that is a master of dammaging and debuffing


    Spear Warrior - an agile warrior able to pierce the strongest armors


    Thrower - a warrior specialised in hiting flyers and using/stealing items.


    As I started saying this is an idea that is still on it's very early stages. I am still looking or inspiration to decide on the name and appearence of the characters.


    I look forward for any feedback and, as soon as my idea gets more developed I will make sure to update this post.
  20. PsychicToaster said:
    Zeline, the Breath of Life, gave humanity conscience, law, discipline, and emotion so that they would care for one another and live righteously. She gave the world's riverbeds water and the skies rain so that all living things could flourish.


    Ikhael, the Hand of Death, cursed humans with short lifespans and naturally frail bodies that are susceptable to disease, famine, and thirst. 


    Arius, the Sword of Light, created the sun to light Astroch and banish the darkness. By its light, humans felt invigorated and pleased,  plants flourished from its nurturing warmth.


    Vella, the Eye of Darkness, gave humans  free will, cunning, deception, ambition, hatred, and lust. She also created the cycle of night and the moon, so that humans would be fearful of the Dark's many secrets. 


    Haelach, the Hammer of Creation, bestowed the gift of erudition and the desire to control the natural world. Humans used their intelligence to create societies, construct great cities, and master the elements around them to forge metal, produce crops, tame animals, weave cloth, and work stone. 


    Utarr, the Flame of Destruction, brought fire to the humans. He twisted their minds, inciting hostility, malice, arrogance, rage, and war. Utarr was also responsible for bringing about severe weather. Floods, wildfires, snowstorms, thunderstorms, earthquakes, and volcanic activity.


    As a final gift the Aspects gave the humans thaumaturgy, the power to manipulate the Domains of Order. Through rigorous training and study, humans could tap into the natural forces of the world around them to work miracles of healing, enchant metal, conjure fire, kill, create, and destroy."

    I love what you've done here, you've put loads of thought into it and it sounds excellent. Couple of things though if I may.


    Why did Ikhael curse humanity? Was it spite? Was it for balance? Also why would Vella want the hu!and to be fearful of the night? It's a great concept but I think it needs a Why, if that makes sense?


    Also, I reckon there should be a reason why humans were given the ability to manipulate the domains, maybe as a pay off for their mortality, or maybe Ikhael cursed humans because of this gift?


    Love where you're going with this though!