Yes…this is the new home of the monthly RTP debate thread. Not to exhaust everyone after this month’s issue, but perhaps some sort of multi-purpose pinned discussion is long overdue? My finger can forever be placed on “merge post.”
OH! But, let’s make it so much more than RTP babble!
Let’s use this place to discuss any number of topics surrounding game graphics. Since we’re over here in general discussion, it should be geared toward graphics for RPG Maker games though it’s natural other games will need discussed to make thorough analysis.
Ideas of discussions!
What makes a graphic style age well?
How do you decide what direction to take your graphics?
What styles do you prefer?
How do your graphics elevate and become part of the narrative?
Sky’s the limit. Just remember to direct your very specific “how do I graphic?” questions to the Resource Support sections.
The Master Mega Game Graphics and Style Discussion Thread
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I'm probably in the minority of gamers, but I like styles of graphics that are unique and stand out, even if they're "ugly". I also find that these types of styles age better, since they tend to look a specific way, and the advancement of technology rarely plays into how that style can be achieved, but that's far from a universal statement.
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I was just talking to the Man, The Myth about composing a copy-pasta I can just plop onto every thread about the RTP. I might still do that, but at least if I forget, I can just point a finger towards this thread.
I hope Avery has already smashed that "Watch" button at least 100 times cause I know she always has choice words about the RTP and all those naysayers who say the RTP is bad. -
Before I get into it, apologies in advance for the length of this post. I know brevity is the soul of wit and all that, but I think there's an element of this discussion that always gets overlooked, so I figured I'd write down my thoughts on what that thing is, and how we can be healthier in our discussion of the RTP (and other asset packs) in general!
So, here's the issue as I see it with the RTP, and I think it's the secret sauce of why so many RM games - and games by solodevs in general - end up looking visually messy, or unappealing:
Art Direction
Above and beyond the skill of creating individual assets for a video game, be they characters, environments, props, or "other", there is a skill which unifies how all of those assets look for that project. This is what we call 'Art Direction', and it is probably more important to the way the audience feel about your game's visuals than any individual piece of art within the game.
Think of any game that "looks good" and you'll generally be able to identify the deliberate decisions (or direction) given, or taken, to end up with the visual qualities the game eventually extolls. It can be the difference between a generic shooter and - for example - Borderlands, or Call of Duty. Art Direction isn't as simple as "style", and depending on the scope and fidelity of the project can also encompass things like lighting, UI/UX work, and everything the game does visually to make the player think, feel, or act a certain way.
Another thing games that "look good" tend to also have is artistic cohesion. They tend not to be eclectic mismatches of assets, hamfistedly edited in Gimp to try to fit into an existing style - everything is done with purpose (again, read as Direction) to ensure that the end product that the player sees is appealing and tonally appropriate to the game being played.
As an analogy, try to think of the difference between Art and Art Direction as a painting in a gallery, with each member of the team (or, in solo projects, each function) at different levels of distance from an individual painting:
- Artists ensure that each individual brushstroke is properly placed and works with the strokes around it. They are as close to the canvas as possible to ensure that this is the case.
- More senior artists, or Leads, ensure that those individual brushstrokes make up whatever the subject being painted is - be it a person, an object, or a scene. They stand far enough away from the canvas to ensure they can see the bit of the painting for which they (and their artists) are responsible for.
- The Art Director makes sure that the painting itself looks good. He stands as far from the painting as other viewers and makes calls that change the style of the painting, how everything is composed, and in general what direction the painting takes.
Now, how does this apply to the RTP?
The thing to remember about the RTP - and any stock assets that aren't handcrafted for a project - is that they are, by definition, generic. I don't mean "generic" in any negative way here, but rather in its most literal definition:
They are generic because they have to be used in a wide variety of projects, and as such are direction-agnostic.
This is where the weakness of any generic/stock assets come in - and it's why (I think) so many RTP games can come across as visually underwhelming. The assets themselves have been created by really talented artists close to the canvas, and the leads overseeing them know what they are and have ensured quality in that way. The issue is that the direction here is that these have to fit with a broad variety of tones, so that they can fit into as many projects as possible.
Does that mean that the RTP is bad?
Absolutely not. It is cohesive, competently made, and for projects that fit that generic fantasy style they can absolutely be appropriate. There's also a ton you can do to the RTP to alter the tone of the art drastically.
What I do think is that because of the issue of generic Art Direction the assets in the RTP - and the RTP as a whole - will be sub optimal for projects which rely heavily on art to set any tone the RTP was not designed for. If supplemented poorly by assets not created in the style of the RTP you also end up with issues around artistic cohesion; great games, but when players look at them their reaction isn't "this looks great", it's "why do the characters not fit with the world?"
This means that the RTP also then becomes quite constricting in terms of which assets you are able to use (if you want to create a game which is visually cohesive).
There are absolutely a ton of great games that can be made using just the RTP - and with limited tilesets in general (see Link's Awakening for a great example of this), but I don't think that's really what we should be concerning ourselves with. The argument has been made for and against the RTP so many times that I think a lot of people are blue in the face, and sick of people going back and forth on it: I think that this is because we're focused on "is it ok to use this", or "is it good/bad", rather than "what are the pros and cons of using the RTP".
If you re-frame the discussion around that I think that a lot of the qualitative concerns people have surrounding the argument somewhat fall away. The RTP is great because it's free, cohesive, and relatively comprehensive. It's less great because it's generic, precludes the use of custom assets in different styles, and has associations in the public eye (on the rare occasion that people do identify it as 'those RPG maker assets') with shovelware and pornography.
In general, as with all things, I think it's best to be deliberate about what it is you're making.
If you have the time, aptitude, or budget then there is absolutely a benefit to having a game made with custom, art-directed assets that help you convey tone (and don't betray your tone or narrative because you're forced into decisions by usiing the RTP).
If you don't, then just use the RTP - but don't get salty when people say "the art here doesn't really line up with what you're trying to do". The flat facts of it are that it simply won't (to the same extent as custom, directed art would), because if you try to pretzel art with different direction, style, or technical specs into something they're not meant to be used for you will end up with compromises that affect the way your game is seen.
That doesn't mean the RTP is bad, or that it shouldn't be used, or that it's even sub-optimal for some applications, but I think it's healthier to talk about what it's good at rather than endlessly arguing about the viability of a set of generic assets included for free with RPG Maker.
After all, most people don't know what the RTP even is, and as I always say: The audience for your game is not other devs, it's players!
Thanks for your time! -
Thank you for typing this out. This actually really helps out on a question I made in another forum area, as you actually found my post haha.Before I get into it, apologies in advance for the length of this post. I know brevity is the soul of wit and all that, but I think there's an element of this discussion that always gets overlooked, so I figured I'd write down my thoughts on what that thing is, and how we can be healthier in our discussion of the RTP (and other asset packs) in general!
So, here's the issue as I see it with the RTP, and I think it's the secret sauce of why so many RM games - and games by solodevs in general - end up looking visually messy, or unappealing:
Art Direction
Above and beyond the skill of creating individual assets for a video game, be they characters, environments, props, or "other", there is a skill which unifies how all of those assets look for that project. This is what we call 'Art Direction', and it is probably more important to the way the audience feel about your game's visuals than any individual piece of art within the game.
Think of any game that "looks good" and you'll generally be able to identify the deliberate decisions (or direction) given, or taken, to end up with the visual qualities the game eventually extolls. It can be the difference between a generic shooter and - for example - Borderlands, or Call of Duty. Art Direction isn't as simple as "style", and depending on the scope and fidelity of the project can also encompass things like lighting, UI/UX work, and everything the game does visually to make the player think, feel, or act a certain way.
Another thing games that "look good" tend to also have is artistic cohesion. They tend not to be eclectic mismatches of assets, hamfistedly edited in Gimp to try to fit into an existing style - everything is done with purpose (again, read as Direction) to ensure that the end product that the player sees is appealing and tonally appropriate to the game being played.
As an analogy, try to think of the difference between Art and Art Direction as a painting in a gallery, with each member of the team (or, in solo projects, each function) at different levels of distance from an individual painting:
- Artists ensure that each individual brushstroke is properly placed and works with the strokes around it. They are as close to the canvas as possible to ensure that this is the case.
- More senior artists, or Leads, ensure that those individual brushstrokes make up whatever the subject being painted is - be it a person, an object, or a scene. They stand far enough away from the canvas to ensure they can see the bit of the painting for which they (and their artists) are responsible for.
- The Art Director makes sure that the painting itself looks good. He stands as far from the painting as other viewers and makes calls that change the style of the painting, how everything is composed, and in general what direction the painting takes.
Now, how does this apply to the RTP?
The thing to remember about the RTP - and any stock assets that aren't handcrafted for a project - is that they are, by definition, generic. I don't mean "generic" in any negative way here, but rather in its most literal definition:
They are generic because they have to be used in a wide variety of projects, and as such are direction-agnostic.
This is where the weakness of any generic/stock assets come in - and it's why (I think) so many RTP games can come across as visually underwhelming. The assets themselves have been created by really talented artists close to the canvas, and the leads overseeing them know what they are and have ensured quality in that way. The issue is that the direction here is that these have to fit with a broad variety of tones, so that they can fit into as many projects as possible.
Does that mean that the RTP is bad?
Absolutely not. It is cohesive, competently made, and for projects that fit that generic fantasy style they can absolutely be appropriate. There's also a ton you can do to the RTP to alter the tone of the art drastically.
What I do think is that because of the issue of generic Art Direction the assets in the RTP - and the RTP as a whole - will be sub optimal for projects which rely heavily on art to set any tone the RTP was not designed for. If supplemented poorly by assets not created in the style of the RTP you also end up with issues around artistic cohesion; great games, but when players look at them their reaction isn't "this looks great", it's "why do the characters not fit with the world?"
This means that the RTP also then becomes quite constricting in terms of which assets you are able to use (if you want to create a game which is visually cohesive).
There are absolutely a ton of great games that can be made using just the RTP - and with limited tilesets in general (see Link's Awakening for a great example of this), but I don't think that's really what we should be concerning ourselves with. The argument has been made for and against the RTP so many times that I think a lot of people are blue in the face, and sick of people going back and forth on it: I think that this is because we're focused on "is it ok to use this", or "is it good/bad", rather than "what are the pros and cons of using the RTP".
If you re-frame the discussion around that I think that a lot of the qualitative concerns people have surrounding the argument somewhat fall away. The RTP is great because it's free, cohesive, and relatively comprehensive. It's less great because it's generic, precludes the use of custom assets in different styles, and has associations in the public eye (on the rare occasion that people do identify it as 'those RPG maker assets') with shovelware and pornography.
In general, as with all things, I think it's best to be deliberate about what it is you're making.
If you have the time, aptitude, or budget then there is absolutely a benefit to having a game made with custom, art-directed assets that help you convey tone (and don't betray your tone or narrative because you're forced into decisions by usiing the RTP).
If you don't, then just use the RTP - but don't get salty when people say "the art here doesn't really line up with what you're trying to do". The flat facts of it are that it simply won't (to the same extent as custom, directed art would), because if you try to pretzel art with different direction, style, or technical specs into something they're not meant to be used for you will end up with compromises that affect the way your game is seen.
That doesn't mean the RTP is bad, or that it shouldn't be used, or that it's even sub-optimal for some applications, but I think it's healthier to talk about what it's good at rather than endlessly arguing about the viability of a set of generic assets included for free with RPG Maker.
After all, most people don't know what the RTP even is, and as I always say: The audience for your game is not other devs, it's players!
Thanks for your time!
Reframing it as pros and cons cleared things up in my brain just like that. For me, there are more pros than cons to using certain parts of the RTP.
As a separate thought:
I feel like, for me, it's based on time and energy versus what is appealing to the widest audience. And, I really like the style of the battle sprites and tilesets! They are objectively good, depending on the project. There's also a lot of room for creativity using them!
The RTP assets open the door to allow a lot of creators in who wouldn't be able to otherwise. I consider that to be a good thing, while some consider it to be 'bad'! I'd rather have a million 'bad' games and allow people to be creative in ways they want to be! -
I personally love MV's RTP, but it doesn't align with the characters that I have in mind, and the restrictive nature that @Iron_Brew points out is definitely a limiting factor. But it doesn't stop me from frequently thinking about putting together some sort of small adventure with H, T, M, and L!
That aside, I think it's important to do one of two things: lean in to your personal skillset, or lean in to what you want to learn—because RPG Maker presents great learning opportunities.
Maybe you have a really endearing art style like Iron Brew or any of the other talented artists here on the forums. So, maybe you capitalize on that and work toward crafting your own RTP, or enhancing the RTP with custom assets.
Or, maybe you have experience with UI design, so you focus on presenting the RTP in new ways that vary from the established plugin libraries that everyone has seen over and over again.
Consider your skills, and consider what you want to learn from the process. If your skillset or learning objectives don't consist of replacing the RTP, then consider choosing the RTP or asset pack(s) that best align with those skills or goals.
The idea is to enhance the ready-made assets with the skills that you personally bring to the table.
As a side-note, I personally wouldn't put much emphasis on the concept of what is going to appeal to an audience. Practice scope control. If your project is purely for personal enrichment or something to share with your friends, does it really matter if X number of people on Reddit or Steam hate the RTP?
Probably not. -
I think the MV rtp is great and if you use it with the Trinity dlc even more so. Avery made a great tutorial showcasing how to adjust it to fit the FSM dlc.
The Mz rtp has its good and weak parts (the autotiles are its weak parts).
But both are free, if you own the maker and matching custom tiles also available here in the forum.
And making a custom tileset could take as long as making a game in itself. It is mainly a question on what you enjoy more. Making a game or making assets for it. -
Big fan of the RTP. But I'm more of a gameplay and mechanics guy, and I'd rather play a well thought out game using RTP than a shallow game using all custom graphics. When I look for a random RPG Maker game to play, I'll usually seek out something that involves RTP because I enjoy seeing what people can do with limited resources. And the RTP oozes that RPG Maker charm that you can't find anywhere else.
The only time I'd avoid RTP as the plague is when I'm looking to spend money on a game. I associate the RTP with free hobby projects, and I'm not willing to spend a dime on a game that makes use of it. -
I really think @Iron_Brew …that you cover so many of my feelings. There are more cons for me (I have a pretty specific atmosphere and world building I want the direction of my art to facilitate…but the RTP is neither good nor bad. It is not a living being with morals. The reasons why people want to make a game are way too vast to prescribe a single roadmap.
What I will say is that any premade graphic is a tool and the most critical issue is how people use their tools. There are many topics people can study and get a better understanding of without even needing to place a pen to a paper…or err, tablet. I talk about it ad nauseam, really…but color theory and composition.
Having even a baseline understanding of how colors pair and mix, how to create harmonies and schemes…what makes a composition and how to control positive and negative space (and choosing where to run off the canvas and where not to) can take a map (no matter the graphics you’re using) from “not visually offensive” to “I can’t stop looking at it.” To me, these are core art skills and it’s why there are art modes that are focused solely on color, shape, and composition.
Simple recolors and purposefully placing all the objects on your maps are significantly more powerful than I think people realize. And…that all can happen despite whatever tile you use.
I really, really, REALLY love Yoshi’s Island and its use of color is to die for. I could gush about this game’s graphics for quite a while. The background uses primarily tertiary colors. Looking at the color wheel, you will even notice that the sky and the grasses/bushes offset each other on the wheel. And even further, the orange flowers are still leaning into the tertiary. So…we are working with a pretty classic color harmony here and it #justworksTM
Even further, the foreground objects become a LOT more primary and it really helps bring them “closer” to the player despite being on the 2D space without even using any aggressive shading styles.
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I really like the RTP! My only real gripes with it is it's a bit slim on options without relying on free resources or DLC (and potentially editing those resources/DLC). But eh, that's life. What's there is solid.
In general, I will say I'm not the pickiest with graphics. If the story and/or gameplay is good enough, I'll tolerate the ugliest or worst aged graphics known to man. My only bar is that I know what I'm looking at most of the time, and I would really like it if what's I'm seeing was all the same style. One game i've played bugged me with how it uses a bunch of different styles all over, and I refuse to use any mods/CC in the sims or skyrim where the models are too highly rendered because it clashes with the rest of the game.
As far as aging, stylized always ages the best, especially in 3d. I have my gripes with the sims 4, but a decade out it still looks pretty good with it's cartoony graphics while the sims 3 looks.... very potato-y. At best. -
Color theory does play a major role in whether a game looks cohesive. Also, I adore Yoshi's Island's design scheme! One of my favorite games for many reasons, and definitely a beautiful example of what can be done with 2D graphics.Having even a baseline understanding of how colors pair and mix, how to create harmonies and schemes…what makes a composition and how to control positive and negative space (and choosing where to run off the canvas and where not to) can take a map (no matter the graphics you’re using) from “not visually offensive” to “I can’t stop looking at it.” To me, these are core art skills and it’s why there are art modes that are focused solely on color, shape, and composition.
Simple recolors and purposefully placing all the objects on your maps are significantly more powerful than I think people realize. And…that all can happen despite whatever tile you use.
I really, really, REALLY love Yoshi’s Island and its use of color is to die for. I could gush about this game’s graphics for quite a while. The background uses primarily tertiary colors. Looking at the color wheel, you will even notice that the sky and the grasses/bushes offset each other on the wheel. And even further, the orange flowers are still leaning into the tertiary. So…we are working with a pretty classic color harmony here and it #justworksTM
Even further, the foreground objects become a LOT more primary and it really helps bring them “closer” to the player despite being on the 2D space without even using any aggressive shading styles.
I do find that recoloring objects on the map make a huge difference! Once again, that color theory in play, and also, it just works more seamlessly in some cases. The RTP of MZ is very limited, even compared to MV, so I have found myself doing a lot of recoloring if nothing else. Also I hate the look of some of the roof tiles in particular and would never use them except in recolored format. It's of no offense to the person who made those tiles, the colors are just jarring. -
I really think @Iron_Brew …that you cover so many of my feelings. There are more cons for me (I have a pretty specific atmosphere and world building I want the direction of my art to facilitate…but the RTP is neither good nor bad. It is not a living being with morals. The reasons why people want to make a game are way too vast to prescribe a single roadmap.
What I will say is that any premade graphic is a tool and the most critical issue is how people use their tools. There are many topics people can study and get a better understanding of without even needing to place a pen to a paper…or err, tablet. I talk about it ad nauseam, really…but color theory and composition.
Having even a baseline understanding of how colors pair and mix, how to create harmonies and schemes…what makes a composition and how to control positive and negative space (and choosing where to run off the canvas and where not to) can take a map (no matter the graphics you’re using) from “not visually offensive” to “I can’t stop looking at it.” To me, these are core art skills and it’s why there are art modes that are focused solely on color, shape, and composition.
Simple recolors and purposefully placing all the objects on your maps are significantly more powerful than I think people realize. And…that all can happen despite whatever tile you use.
I really, really, REALLY love Yoshi’s Island and its use of color is to die for. I could gush about this game’s graphics for quite a while. The background uses primarily tertiary colors. Looking at the color wheel, you will even notice that the sky and the grasses/bushes offset each other on the wheel. And even further, the orange flowers are still leaning into the tertiary. So…we are working with a pretty classic color harmony here and it #justworksTM
Even further, the foreground objects become a LOT more primary and it really helps bring them “closer” to the player despite being on the 2D space without even using any aggressive shading styles.
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Not entirely related to the core topic of the thread, but for those less artistically inclined, especially when it comes to the visual stuff, this tool is a great starting point for picking colors:
Paletton - The Color Scheme Designer
I use this thing A Ton to at least get me a base-line with my colors. When I was in University my teacher provided this resource to me. Somehow this website still exists and still functions just as well.
Obviously how and where you use the colors is up to you (which may require some artistic determination) but at least you got the baseline covered. -
The more tools and resources, the merrier! I think it’s completely related. @TheAM-Dol Tons of people come into the game dev sphere not really having a of background in art, but it’s really valuable to learn enough to direct others and consider the ideas of color being part of the visual story telling. I’m gonna use the crap out of this too. LOL.
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I don't think the RTP is bad, just overused. And I personally get tired of seeing the same thing over and over regardless of the quality of other features.
And if you're thinking ''ofc its overused, it comes with the engine and not everyone can make their own'' Yes, true. But there being reasons for something being the way it is doesn't change the fact that it still is.
I also just straight up dislike Chibi stuff so that doesnt help. -
As someone who can’t create graphics, or music, or code (apart from very simple edits of existing code), I pretty much have to rely either on the RTP or material I can buy or download from elsewhere, so it’s always been a little discouraging how many people won’t consider playing games with RTP graphics. Of course, I can also understand, given the circumstances, why people would be wary of the RTP. Ideally, every game would use material unique to itself, but that requires a lot of time, effort, and (in most cases) money. I have a number of ideas for what might be called “dream games,” and would certainly prefer that they use graphics (and other material) created specially for them. My current plan, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, is to turn these “game” ideas into novels (since writing is the one art form I’m good at), which can then hopefully be used to draw in collaborators.
In the meantime, my desire to create games (using RPG Maker, which is about the only game development software simple enough for me to use) remains, and I think I may mess around with the RTP when the urge hits to maybe make this happen. I don’t know yet to what extent I will, on the one hand, try to adapt my interests to the RTP and, on the other hand, allow the RTP to inspire me. I’m sure the project will do both of these things to some degree, but probably the latter would be best. If anyone has any thoughts on the issue, I’d love to hear them.
Since I noticed someone alluded to it above, and I’ve been wondering about it for a while, is there a similar stigma hanging about the “DLC” products that there is about the RTP? Is it perhaps less, because RM users don’t have access to the DLC by default?
Edit:
I forgot to mention that at times the RTP doesn’t do a great job of unified art direction. The battle backgrounds are out of scale with the enemy battlers, so that Treants look less like tree-giants and more like tree-munchkins. And of course the side-view actor battlers in the newer platforms are ridiculously tiny in comparison to both the backgrounds and the enemies. This is something that is one of the RTP’s biggest faults, in my opinion. -
@TMS there is (sort of) already a thread going on about the RTP (it's more about the RPG Maker stigma as a whole).
I just addressed the RTP point quite thoroughly, so rather than repeating myself, just read it here:
How to make RPG Maker games not suck -
I can draw my own graphics and it's extremely time consuming. It takes me an entire day to do one character spritesheet (front, side and back with three frames each). I don't even use the battle scene so no battler graphics. If I have to do tilesets too it will take me close to a year just making graphics. You'll see in status updates from people who do their own art how much time it takes them.Ideally, every game would use material unique to itself, but that requires a lot of time, effort, and (in most cases) money. I have a number of ideas for what might be called “dream games,” and would certainly prefer that they use graphics (and other material) created specially for them.
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Right, and that's part of why it sometimes just isn't feasible to dispense with the RTP entirely.
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The "happy medium" seems to either be spend $10-20 on premade asset packs and/or heavily edit the RTP (or the asset pack). Even then you'll get people calling your game an asset flip but I guess that's still perceived better than the RTP is.Right, and that's part of why it sometimes just isn't feasible to dispense with the RTP entirely.
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Huh, thanks for the tip. It's difficult to find a balance, for sure.