@Tai_MT Final Fantasy VII: What is still confusing you?

I remember it now. Thanks for the reference.


Actually, we know three clones - Cloud, Zack, and the guy in the slums who "are sick".


Ok, anyway, I'm more or less ready to be converted.


I still think this presents issues with the narrative - the biggest one being Masamune. The second biggest being that Sephiroth is needlessly given physical form in North Crater despite the fact that he doesn't need it in any way shape or form to complete his plan.


The third issue has to do with the fact that Jenova somehow reverts back to her form in battles for no apparent reason.


The fourth being that you would think Sephiroth would realize that Jenova wasn't an ancient, if he was in total control of her mind.


I think it's safe to say that these are inconsistencies brought fourth by differnt writers and producers not really knowing where they were going with the narrative, and not enough coordinated efforts toward reconciling various scenes in the plot that were developed with large gaps in time, or with different team set-ups.


It's a common problem in FF games, but I think it sorta damages the claim that FF7 is easily followable as a stand-alone title.

Oddly enough I always considered that Sephiroth was gathering the parts of Jenova to put her back together and to escape just dropped them to make you fight/cover his retreat... but it doesn't make sense in that why go to all the trouble to gather her parts just to use them for cover, especially if he needs them. So the shape-shift idea works when it comes to that at least - better to cut off an arm and let them deal with it and then move on to focus on the bigger plan (that doesn't involve stealing body parts).

As for the third issue - perhaps the part being removed from the main body loses the ability to shape change so is changed back. Makes sense to me~

Masamune might have been taken by Shinra after Sephiroth dies in Nibelheim and perhaps the break-out of Jenova was also to take back Masamune. That covers that section too.

Perhaps it wasn't a total control. Perhaps Jenova was happy to help Sephiroth and since she didn't struggle, he saw no need to delve in. Also, just because you can control a person doesn't mean that you can see their thoughts. Easy explained~ And barring actually controlling a real Cetra like Aeris or Iflana, how was he to know the difference? He couldn't. He'd been told Jenova was Cetra so he believed it to be true. Remember, he had access to the highest information within Shinra, so what they knew and assumed, he knew and assumed to be true. Man thinking themselves to know best and all that jazz.

The only issue of those you listed, the only one that can't easily be explained away, is the one about the physical form, but even then... he was a man. He was also a soldier. Just because something can be done without a body doesn't mean it has to be done without one. He was a fighter and probably wanted to eventually exist. He also probably wanted a body ready for when he ascended to God-hood, so... having a body at the ready for that makes sense.

I've considered that, but if shapeshifting is dependent on some sort of wholeness, then why can the main body retain Sephiroth's form despite having shaved off so much of its body.

Sephiroth falls into the mako pit with his sword in his hand, so only someone who's been fishing around in the life-stream, or Sephiroth himself would have access to it.

I can accept this as an excuse, but if Sephiroth and Jenova are completing eachothers sentences, I still think it's kind of silly.

Maybe. Everything goes kind of haywire when you end up fighting Sephiroth in the end, and he has all these alien forms, and finally his essence in the life-stream. I mean, he can obviously exist in some sort of meaningful sense even without a body, so why would he need one, and he obviously isn't so attached to it that he's unwilling to replace with his Bizarro and Safer Sephiroth to fight Cloud and Co in either case.

Why would he need a body? Because he is human, even if he has the power of a god. It's why he was defeated too. Just because you have the power of a god doesn't mean you are a god. ;p (Besides it would be really hard to fight nothing in an RPG battle. XD )

As for Masamune, it could be that it washed up at a Mako-heavy hot-spot. It could be that Jenova borrowed it. Frankly, I don't think physical items can actually be absorbed by the lifestream. It's a stream of life and thus only that which has life within it can be drawn in - at least, that's what I think.

Jenova's full body housed the mind of Jenova. Breaking off a part of it removes it from the full mind and power of the body. I'm thinking something a bit like a host-mind. While the mind can share information with the parts of the body, the parts don't necessarily have the power of the body. Some power, perhaps, but not all. And also, it wanted to keep that it wasn't Sephiroth a secret from Cloud, so of course seeing a Sephiroth split in two would out that secret - it'd make sense that if they wanted Jenova to be seen as Sephiroth, not showing that it was capable of shifting into said Sephiroth would be a must. Either of those work for you?

Think of it like this:-

Sephiroth has Jenova at his disposal. He can control it to do as he wishes, though he can't control its thoughts. Thankfully for him, Jenova doesn't mind this because Sephiroth's plans will further Jenova's plans too. So it plays along and doesn't put up a fuss.

Jenova can shape change. Part of that is regrowing removed pieces of itself. It can use those pieces via a hive-mind, sharing information back and forth. The pieces have part of the power of the full body, but not as much. It either decides not to change into the form of Sephiroth so that Cloud and crew don't realise that the Sephiroth roaming around isn't really Sephiroth, or because it doesn't have the ability to change its shape when not a part of the whole.

The real Sephiroth is growing a body (for god reasons) and so uses Jenova to act in his stead. This means retrieving Masamune which wasn't absorbed by the life stream because it isn't a living object, among other things - stabbing Aeris and stealing the Black materia for example.

The stabber of Aeris was Jenova, not Sephiroth. The line about being a puppet may have been Jenova messing around trying to play with one of Sephiroth's clones (Cloud).

   Wait, what? Now I'm confused again. What were they then and why do they refer to Cloud, who is a Sephiroth clone, as 'brother'? I always thought that the various Sephiroths that were seen in game were Sephiroth clones that fused with pieces of Jenova, and Kadaj in the movie seemed to support that thought at least. Plus they referred to themselves as his 'remnants' or something similar if I recall correctly, which to me all substantiates that they are surviving clones, and I can't think of anywhere that I've seen anything that describes them as being something else. 

Oh boy, now we're delving into the 2nd dumbest part of FFVII lore - Advent Children. Gather around kiddies as I tell you this tell of madness, aspirations, and failure to become a movie company.

Think of Yazoo, Loz, and Kadaj as the last remnants of Sephiroth's will. As you can see they're strong, but not as strong as him before or after falling into the lifestream. They act as the stand-ins for Sephiroth so they can get a piece of Jenova and bring it back to the crater so Sephiroth can make himself a new body.

Now the way Sephiroth Clones and Jenova Cells work depends on how strong of a will a person has. This ranges from being able to retain you're identity and having little to no side effects (Zack), able to be "themselves", but when wanted can still be controlled (Cloud), and then there's losing yourself completely and just becoming a mutated mass (The black cloak beings, which also represents lost of identity).

Now about the Masamune. In the original FFVII, Cloud did throw Sephy into the lifestream, but if I'm remembering correctly not the sword. I think we can assume that he pulled it out of him and just put it to the side. When Shinra came to clean up, they could have picked it up and brung it back to Midgar. Easy enough explained right? Well thanks to Advent Children, when Sephy decided to step in he magically copied himself to Kadaj and apparently the Masamune. So if we want to take this movie into cannon, Jenova can make physical objects from itself.

@Uzuki: So are you saying that they are or are not in fact, Sephiroth Clones?(Also, what is the dumbest part?) I understand that they in some ways are supposed to represent aspects of Sephiroth, but wasn't that the entire point of the Jenova project with the clones in the first place. Also, if they aren't surviving clones then where did they come from in the first place. Did Sephiroth somehow create them through sheer willpower the same way he remained in the lifestream and manifested as the stigma, the same way he created a new body for himself in the original game? If so, why the different personalities, wouldn't they just be Sephiroth, only weaker if that were the case? To me the idea that they were surviving clones being manipulated by Sephiroth's continued influence is the only thing I can think of that makes sense. (That or throwing the entire movie out the window as non-canonical bs, which I'd also be fine with doing as I wasn't really a fan of it to begin with). 

As for the whole Masamune thing, didn't Sephiroth/Jenova in game leave the blade behind on occasion? I seem to remember that it was stabbed into the Shinra President and just left there, so maybe the version of Masamune being used by Sephiroth/Jenova in game was just a further manifestation of Jenova's shapeshifting abilities, witithin the context of the actual game. (that or Jenova liked to backtrack a lot while Cloud and Co. were pursuing it, which still wouldn't explain how Jenova gained the blade in the first place as Hian already pointed out.)

They were literal manifestations of Sephiroth. After Cloud defeated him in the Lifestream at the end of FFVII, Sephiroth was fractured. He was trying to piece himself back together, and that was the purpose in the movie. Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz ARE Sephiroth. They were attempting to refuse with a piece of Jenova to basically put Sephiroth back together.

   Yet their personalities are so different than that of Sephiroth's? Where Sephiroth was controlling and confident they are dependent and desperate? Where does that individuality and difference come from if they are directly manifested of Sephiroth himself without any outside influence or memories? At the same time, why does Sephiroth actually need Jenova in order to become Sephiroth again if the three of them actually are Sephiroth himself? Where does the idea that Sephiroth formed the three of them out of nothing come from when in the context of the movie he is already controlling Jenova's cells in the form of the Geostigma? By that logic, during the reunion scene with all of the kids why didn't he just take the Jenova cells in all the kids to form enough of Jenova so that he can turn back into himself? The games/movies established lore seems to completely support that he would just further his control over existing clones rather than somehow creating living beings out of nothing that have personalities that are independent of his own, unless there is something I am just completely missing then that makes absolutely no sense to me and after just re-watching the movie I saw/heard nothing that would substantiate that idea within it.

What Touchfuzzy said. They are pieces of Sephiroth's will that were recreated into physical form so they can make a proper body for Sephiroth. If I remember they each represent a fraction of Sephiroth. Kadaj is the arrogent headstrong leader, AKA his ego, Loz is strength, but also the fragile emotional side of him, and Yazoo is the calm cool side of him. As for what he made them from...who knows. Maybe he found some random monsters roaming around and took their bodies. Or maybe there were other Turks with Reno on the helicopter and no one could give less then two craps about no name Turks.

Edit: Also it's never explained why he needs such a large part of Janova for. Maybe he needs the original source so he can have all of the powers that she had, like regeneration and shapeshifting. Maybe just having regular human bodies with the cells aren't gonna cut it with him. In FFVII they completely destroyed Seph's body and thus all of the progress he made to make it able to handle Janova's powers. Remember his body is different from other humans in that he is a hybrid of Human and Janova and combine with his abnormally strong will he can control anything Janova related.

And for me I think the dumbest part of the VII lore is Dirge of Cerberus. The story for it just comes completely out of left field and makes little to no sense. The combat isn't too bad, but they had more then enough time to refine it. And worst part for me is the ending. Why leave it on such a massive cliff ending and let it go nowhere. I felt that it insulted me after I put in all that work to see it. Even if you feel that it ended the way you didn't want it to, finish what you started Square. Despite this I still enjoy the game and will defend it for it's weak points.

As for the Masamune in the President, as a story wise choice we can say that Seph left it there for Cloud to find and reassure him that he is still alive. Now as someone who likes to make the darkest of things funny, I imagine Sephiroth forgot to pick it back up before he left.

Sephiroth: *Sephiroth watches Midgar from a far distance and monologues to himself*  "That's right Cloud, I'm still alive. Yes, let your emotions run wild. This will make my control over you all the more stronger. And when we finally meet in person I shall....Goddammit I forgot my sword in the Shinra building! Now I have to fly all the way back kill the security, again, kill some random workers and the clean-up crew....again! *Sigh* I really need to get a wrist strap for that thing."

Where does this idea come from though?! I just re-watched the movie today and there was nothing that even hinted at those three's origin at all. It does have places that discredit the idea that they are Sephiroth however. For instance, when Kadaj and Rufus are talking Kadaj seems to really dislike Sephiroth at one point; and is even envious of Sephiroth for being 'loved' by 'mother' more than he is. So therefore Kadaj both envies and hates himself, because he is Sephiroth though he worries that his 'mother', who he has controlled nearly absolutely for years at this point, loves him more than it loves him? The idea that those three are actually Sephiroth, even an incomplete Sephiroth just doesn't make sense in the context of the movie itself, which as far as I am aware is the only medium in which these three even exist in the first place. Also, that would mean that the three would need to fuse together along with Jenova to make Sephiroth again, not just one of them. If Loz == his strength and Yazoo == his coolheadedness than when Kadaj fused with Jenova's head we'd get Sephiroth - the other two's qualities, thus just a stronger version of Kadaj.

I don't know, it just seems that the exchange between Kadaj and Rufus, the differences between those three and Sephiroth and their desperate ideas of being loved by Jenova rather than controlling it just all point to them being surviving remnants of the Jenova project, the weaker willed kind, being controlled either by Jenova directly to recreate her 'favorite son' or else by Sephiroth's will retained somehow through Jenova's cells even after dying twice. I just don't see anything in the movie that alludes to anything else.

Edit: and in the end where aeris manifests her own will and purifies everyone of the geostigma and then take the three with her. If they were sephiroth himself wouldn't that mean that she just effectively reinfected the lifestream rather than purifying it? It just doesn't make sense.

@Alexander Yesssss, fall into the madness! Let it overcome you and fill you with it's insanity! Evil Laugh, Evil Laugh, Evil Laugh!

Kidding aside, the movie never directly says any of this. Again maybe Janova's head plays a large part in Seph's resurrection. And I guess Seph could have given the three personalities so they would be able to think for themselves when the needs arrive. Although why he would give them the best and worst of his personalities is beyond me. Advent Children is one of those movies were every little thing means something and you have to piece together every little thing together to make sense of anything. That's why most fans don't really like Advent Children, it's too complicated for a video game movie. Plus I edited a Final Fantasy wiki for years so some of the smaller details are stuck with me.

Parts of this come from Advent Children Complete, and parts of it come from written fiction that was made that talk about the events leading up to Advent Children.


Also, while they are parts of Sephiroth, they are just parts of him. None of them are the "whole" which makes them a lot different individually, and they still had their own will as independent beings created from him.


Either way, they were only formed a couple of weeks before Advent Children started.

   I guess I need to find this written fiction and read it then, though I think I'm about ready to just chalk this up to "advent children isn't actually canon" and just throw it out the window because you don't gain individuality from only being a two week old partial manifestation of a dead person who is using the cells of an ancient god to manipulate and control you, if anything I think that would make you even less of an individual personality. Especially when there already exist powerful individuals that carry said cells who's use could explain everything without having to outsource to a prequel book to explain what's going on in a movie that already struggles with being confusing to people who weren't huge fans of the game. Maybe it'll make more sense to me after reading "The Lateral Biography Turks - The Kids are alright" if that is the written fiction you are referring to, though to me it's looking more and more like just a difference between subsidiaries/writers interpretations of what is going on because regardless of whether what you are saying is canon, parts of the movie clearly reject it.

And don't forget the OVA! There's always a OVA that explains everything and nothing.

EDIT: So after all this FF talk I decided to check out my old stomping ground at the FF wikia. Apparently Square is adding another gaame to the FFVII series! *Flails arms wildly* YYYYEEEEEEEEAAAAAAA!!!!!!

Ooooh what? Link link LINK! I must see it!

Turns out it was a April Fool Joke....and I fell for it.....ten days later......I'm just gonna sit in my corner of embarrassment now....

You... what have you done! You overhyped me only to crush my dreams!

I know, I know! I have already flogged myself 30 times and replaced my right hand with a can-opener. I hope this is enough to apologize for my mistake. Again, I am sorry.

Wow, there's an entire topic dedicated to straightening out my issues with Final Fantasy 7's convoluted and confusing story!  You know what else?  I didn't even know it until I was browsing profiles and saw someone had a "Like" from this topic.  Haaaaaaa....

Parts that confuse me:  So... is Cloud dead?  Is he a Clone?  Is he part of Sephiroth?  The game never really seemed to make that clear to me (from what little I've played and actually seen... I may not have played far, but I did watch a friend play a very large portion of it, and even he had trouble answering that question when I asked.)  Maybe one of you guys have a more solid grip on the story and can explain that?  He's got memory issues and he may have been implanted with some cells and turned into some kind of mutant or something...  But, maybe he's a clone, or maybe he's Sephiroth?  Some of the cutscenes were rather vague and nonsensical.

Okay, I get that we start the game as a band of eco-terrorists (why? I have no clue... Square Enix are morons would be my guess), but how do they even know what they're doing will fix the problems?  All they ever say is "If we blow up the reactors that go to the core of the planet, it'll save the life force of the planet!"  How do you know that?  How do you know that blowing up these reactors won't just kill the planet faster?  What if we just shut them down and made them inoperable instead of blowing them up and potentially causing harm to the planet?  Why is this plan the best they could come up with and why is nobody objecting to it?

What are the actual goals of the Shinra corporation?  Sometimes they act as good guys and sometimes as badguys, and they're always tied up in something shady, but they're not above trying to stop the end of the world anyway...  I was always kind of confused about their motivations.  Advent Children some years later didn't clear it up at all for me either... it only seemed to muddy the water further.

There, that's some of my questions while I'm sitting here at 1 a.m. nursing a sore throat with water, aspirin, and honey.