How clear-cut does a story have to be?

Basically, I've been wondering about the balance in telling the player everything and telling them nothing. Obviously, one wouldn't want to tell the player nothing unless it was a silent platformer wherein each area presented a visual clue and the ending tied up all these clues into some giant plot twist.

RPGs have an extensive amount of storytelling and dialogue compared to most other games. Generally however, what is the fine line in determining how much of the story the character's dialogue reveals?

Let's say your characters walk in on a super-secret conversation. How much of the conversation should they hear? Let's use this example:

The two characters in the secret room are planning to murder the King by poisoning his goblet of wine at 5pm. The following are rewrites of the same piece of dialogue, each giving a varying amount of detail. Which is preferential?

This event occurs near the end of the hypothetical game.

A ) "And if we poison his wine...!"

B ) "And if we poison his wine at the fifth hour...!"

C ) "Remember what we discussed... We must do the deed at that hour..."

D ) "As Janet told us, we must poison his wine...!"

E ) "As Janet told us, we must poison his wine at the fifth hour...!"

F ) other (state)

If none of these, how would you reveal the plot?

I know the amount of revelation that a single piece of dialogue can portray is dependant on the game itself, but I thought it'd be an interesting discussion since I've had playtesters that think I reveal too much, and some that think I reveal too little. I know a balance is important - but what is that balance?

I think it really depends on the style of the game.

If I were building a mystery style game, where I want the player to investigate, I'd drop a vague hint.  But the player would find out the bulk of the story by inspecting items.  In the example you gave, I might have the characters say:

"...Did you get the wine.  Great, then we---"

"Oh, hello (PC).  What are you doing here?  We were just leaving" (see the 2 characters take the bottle of wine with them).

If you follow the characters, you see the wine bottle being locked up with an explanation that says "This will keep the wine nice and cool for the festivities tonight."

When they leave, you Examine the cupboard and feel it is NOT refrigerated, so you either pick the lock or get the key from the Chef.  When you look at the wine it seems OK, but if you Examine it, it smells strange.

In a more typical RPG, where I don't need the players to investigate, per se, I'd probably have several characters each say part of the story.  So you might have these pieces:

"...Did you get the wine.  Great, then we---"

"It's strange.  We just got more wine yesterday."

"They said this particular bottle is for the King.  Strange, he prefers the wine from the other vineyard."

Apothecary: "Oh, yes, they bought some chemicals from me, said they had a rat problem."

 

So it really depends on how you want the players to act?  Are they mainly chatting with NPCs?  Are they performing an actual investigation, more in the style of a murder mystery?  

 

In all cases, I agree you want the PCs to piece together the puzzle.  The question is how do you want them doing this.

I was thinking in a more non-mystery-RPG-style, but both of your examples are great ideas. The latter is moreso what I was aiming for in terms of an answer, and it tells me that dialogue is better when other NPCs back it up or contradict it.

I second whitesphere's reply, but just wanted to briefly mention a point (sorry, a bit sleepy now ;)

When you talk about balance, I find that the ideal is to reveal just enough to intrigue the player into investigating more.

Put some subtle clues together either through dialogue ("Make sure no one sees you.") and/or through actions (eg characters hurrying from a wine cellar), and you've got people wondering, Hang on, what's going on here?

Players like to feel a sense of accomplishment when they feel it was their own initiative that solved the mystery, or chugged the plot along.

What Alkorri said is really how you tell a good story in any RPG.  Each NPC action or statement is a piece to the puzzle.   

It does get more interesting when you have lengthy NPC to PC dialogue, from one of the PCs asking questions.  Then the PC might uncover part of the mystery in the normal conversation.  Or, better yet, uncover more intriguing clues which lead to the next action or the next NPC to talk to.

I don't think it's realistic to say even an NPC would have literally one phrase to say, unless said NPC was overheard talking to a third party.  In my game, I'm trying to have the NPCs have a longer initial dialog with the PCs, followed by a much briefer "refresher" that highlights the significant statement if the NPC is questioned again.

Well, it really depends on how stupid you expect your players to be.

No, really.

I'd say don't tell the player about it. Make the player find out about it only once the deed is done. Show, don't tell, is what I am getting at. In the example above, it will be a lot more of a story punch if you saw the king suddenly collapse in the middle of a banquet rather than hearing two characters discussing it. Though when delivering the story punch, it's nice to link it back to some unusual event in the past, something that didn't quite make sense at the time, but now that the deed has happened, the player will instantly get the epiphany and connect the pieces together. Even better is when the past event and the present event are connected in such a way that the player can sort of deduce what could happen next.

If you over hear something it has to sound innocent, only with hindsight suddenly, your thoughts change about it. If you over heard it, you would think nothing of it, but with the deed complete; only then, with more evidence, it becomes clear that they might have something to hid.  Of course, they may not even be responsible.

When it comes to detective stories and mystery-oriented plots, don't be afraid to play dirty. Put yourself in the antagonist's shoes and analyze things from their point of view. Never let the player know the full extent of what's going on at any given time. Give out half-true, incomplete, or deceptive exposition. Manipulate the presentation like a Rubik's cube, and mismatch the colors. Don't defy every expectation the player has, though; a sufficiently savvy player may eventually start assuming the opposite of the usual cliches, and the plan is bust. And, of course, ensure that your plan has a few weak points for the player to exploit.

This can hold true even in more conventional plots. All in all, the plot should make sense, but only if the player puts some thought into it. A mindless player usually mean a mindless plot, and a mindless plot has no place in a game that costs more than $10.00.

I think C's better.It gives the player some kind of "discovering the truth" gameplay.

All of those options sound like "maid and butler dialogue" to me.  It's really common in mysteries and the worst way to tell instead of showing.  It's really tempting to give all the information in a "As you know, Bob" sort of way but no one actually talks like that.  Think about what you might say something you planned in secret and are now doing.  You'd talk as little as possible about the plan wouldn't you?  The conversation would be all be referential to the things they both already know.

"You brought it, right?"

"Of course I did, what would the point be otherwise?"

"Well, give it to me, I'll do it.  I'm the one who'll be killed if this goes badly."

Stuff like that.  Keeping the dialogue realistic and in character is one of the things that is meant by "show not tell".

A roleplaying game , Puts the term the best I want to feel immersed. It should be about how to make the player want the goals of the game for there own gratification not , I should constanly emphthise with the people on screen as if there different things.

You wanna let players feel like there in control doing what they wanna do in the game not being taken on a tour and forced to deal with long text blocks they hate. The all time best games have lighter plot *megaman x , super metriod , legend of zelda link to the past, rpg DS castlevania's , Doom , animal crossing

You goal is simply to bring the max potional of "themeing"

also chrono trigger and Earthbound, Excellent games in terms of rpgs. I really wanna see more Illusion of Gaias, and terranigmas and actraisers, Lost vikings!