Game Making Questions

Sorry for posting here if that's not where I'm supposed to post, but after reviewing what I think I know about copyright laws, and considering the recent DMCA take-down of the Pokemon Essentials downloads and wiki (even though I have a copy and everything I need to make a decent fan game already), I'm beginning to wonder about the ethics of even making a fan game to post on a showcase where those kinds of things are hosted.

Since I'm a bit worried about it, and working on those kinds of things to learn game building mechanics might not do much outside of the Pokemon fandom anyway, as the scripts and mods are mostly plug-and-play, I think it's probably better to concentrate on making my own game, but where should I even start?

I've got sort of a story line, but it's a bit like Pokemon, and it would fit great with the Essentials plug-in, but that absolutely cannot be used for commercial game development, as it would violate the user agreement of the distributor. I would need a whole new plug-in that sort of acted like Essentials, or I would need to learn how to code my own events myself.

The default turn-based format on RM XP just isn't that good, and I see a whole lot less game building potential without using the Essentials plug-in. Does anyone have any advice?

What would be the best (and least risky) course of action for learning how to build video games?

Should I continue to work on my fan game and post on a website that hosts that kind of thing and ignore the possibility of committing copyright infringement, (even though parodies and derivative works are covered under Fair Use, are they not?),

...or should I abandon it and start trying to work on my own original project (which will require hunting down all kinds of graphics and plug-ins that are approved to be applied to commercial use if I don't want to be stuck with vanilla RM XP).

Keep in mind that a parody isn't just a knockoff of something that already exists. A parody can use copywrighted materials because it's a form of expression(or something among those lines, I'm not that knowledgable in that direction). If you simply want to use the tools to create something similar, it will not be considered parody.

If it's about learning, I think it's fine if you'd kept using it without ever posting or sharing it right? I imagine you want to use this knowledge to create something your own after this project. And that should be fine, as far as I know, there is no law against being inspired right? :)

Well, the issue comes with posting on the showcase to get feedback about my project. Like I said earlier, there are websites that host and even encourage that kind of thing, but I guess I wanted to punish myself, so I started doing some internet "research" to find out the legalities of fan works, and it turns out it runs into some pretty muddy waters. I wouldn't want to be the unlucky person who gets legal action taken against me just for playing around and trying to learn how to code using one of my favorite games as a template. Plus, it's also just the idea of is it "legal" or "illegal?" Even if I don't get in trouble for it, am I still "stealing" or otherwise breaking the law?

Yeah, parody works are risky, I guess, and I'm not exactly sure what Fair Use covers when it comes to digital content. I once thought that it was probably okay because the fan game creators weren't making money off of it, but that's not necessarily true.

Making a monster catching game that's similar to Pokemon, though, but with a different story line and slightly different mechanics could probably be done without copyright infringement. If not, I wonder how we got Yugioh, Yokai Watch, Monster Rancher, Tamagotchi, and Digimon, to name a few..., not to mention the many games that have similar game mechanics as Pokemon.

Most countries have decided that fan games are not covered by fair use unless you have permission from the copywrite holder. Also you can usually get away with it if it is a dead IP, but be careful with that as if smeone buys the IP or resurrects it then you could get into trouble late (look at what happened to the Kings Quest fan game). However, since you cannot copywrite mechanics in most areas, you should be able to make a game on the same idea as long as you don't use the exact same story. After all, once StarCraft was popular we got all of these RTS games, and once Diablo was released everyone rushed to release a game that was similar.

Or just look at what happens with open world games now. Everyone is rushing to make one, and they haven't hit issues with that idea. But if you made an exact Fallout game then you would hit issues, as another company owns the rights to that.

That makes sense, so technically, fan games that use similar looking sprites and other assets are not legal to share, even on sites that just display them as showcases or game building contests? That's a bummer. It means there are a lot of sites out there that are technically allowing illegal content, huh? Does that apply even if the game creators and hosting websites aren't receiving any revenue from it? If so, why are there so many fan websites that have a segment for fan made games, many of which include images that are similar (or in some cases directly borrowed from) the games?

It seems that it would still be okay to make something like a Pokemon clone, though, right? (Original sprites, original story, different monsters, different methods of growing them and leveling them up, etc.)

That's not the greatest news ever, though, because it means most of the assets from the Pokemon Essentials plug-in aren't really usable.

I realize I can't use PKMNE for commercial use anyway because of the user agreement, but according to what I understand now, I'd probably be better off not using it period, right?

Since this is about game development, I'm moving this to General Discussion. General Lounge is really for things not game development related.

I'm not going to get too in-depth about legality, since that's been covered in a hundred different topics in General Discussion already (and I recommend checking them out), and I'm unfamiliar with the Pokemon Essentials set, but I do want to give a few hopefully-helpful comments about what you can get away with and what you can't.

In general, you can copy many of the mechanics of other games as long as you don't also copy their interface and their exact details. For example, you could get away with using a system where creatures battled one at a time and could be switched out, and where those creatures had skills with a limited number of uses. You'd be getting into much dicier territory if you copy the exact perspective of those battles (low-angle front view from behind the friendly mon), if you use the same messaging as Pokemon does ("It's not very effective...", etc.), or if you have teams of exactly 6 mon who can learn exactly 4 skills at a time.

If any graphics in Pokemon Essentials are ripped from the actual Pokemon games (or any other games that are copyrighted), you will need to get rid of them and replace them with your own graphics. Just make a placeholder asset in MS Paint or whatever for now.

Finally, there's not a lot that anyone can do to you while your game's in development, especially if you make it clear that you're not going to release it with the questionable assets. It's unlikely you'll get sent threatening letters and even if you do they won't have a lot of teeth behind them until you release your game/demo. So don't feel too worried about continuing development for now, as long as you keep distribution entirely private. Keep working, keep going for it, and just be prepared to rework some of the game mechanics and/or interface later on if using Essentials leads you to create something that's too close to the actual Pokemon series for comfort.

If you would like more detailed and accurate analysis, go ahead and give me more info about exactly what Essentials contains.

The Pokemon Essentials plug-in contains everything--sprites, scripts, and even a demo game, to make your own Pokemon fan game. It was recently given a DMCA order to be taken down, and it was. I just happened to download it before any of that happened. I purchased RM XP for the express purpose of making Pokemon fan games with the plug-in. I saw it advertised pretty frequently as a tool for making fan games, and I thought fan games, which are made more or less from original code and such, must be in clearer waters ethically than ROM hacks, so I purchased RMXP and downloaded the Essentials plug-in. I was happy to have it until the information wiki and download site was taken down.

As far as getting it, that's still possible, but a little internet "research" revealed to me that fan games that use content from the games or content that looks like it's from the actual games are technically illegal. It looks like ROM hacks were actually less illegal than fan games, as at least hacks require the ROM in order to use them--it's like taking and hacking your old console game to make something new, really, but PKMNE is just plug-and-play. Anyone who has RMXP can make and play Pokemon rip-offs.

I'm not a fan of being on the wrong side of what is legal. I though I was just downloading something to make and share games as sort of a fun hobby.

Now I'm wondering if I should continue making this little game I was working on, or should I scrap it and look for something in less of a legal grey area to do. At first, I thought fan games were like fan fiction; the creators of the game ignore it or even encourage it, but it seems like that's not the case, and the very idea of this being potentially illegal, even if I'm not selling it and only planning to show it in the communities where everyone does it, bothers me. I didn't download my kit to learn how to break the law. I got it to learn how to make games!

The problem with Pokeman Essentials was the ripped art from the Pokeman games, as they didn't have permission to use that art. Without that, it would probably have never been shut down. But, it does seem like everyone under the sun wants to make a Pokeman fan game, and nothing else. We had someone trying to make a monster collecting engine of plug-ins that wasn't Pokeman, and it died off due to lack of interest as since it wasn't Pokeman, no one was interested in it.

On another note, fair use does cover educational use, so you MIGHT (emphasis on MIGHT, you should probably consult a lawyer to be safe) be ok to make a Pokeman game for practice only. But you'd never be able to release it legally without permission from Nintendo.

As for those sites, odds are they just haven't been caught yet. If the owners of those games find out about them, they can get them shut down in no time. So just because it is on the internet and/or others are doing it, don't assume it is legal.

You would think that indie game developers would know the risks, though. Sigh, does anyone know where I can find actual legal information on the topic? My Google search has got me thinking it's all illegal, and it might be, but if it is, why are most of the major Pokemon fan communities allowing and encouraging it, and why on Earth was PKMNE marketed along with RMXP? Is it possible I'm missing something? I want to think that whole online communities wouldn't be pouring their time, effort, and programming skills into something illegal.

Anyway, for the time being, I think I'm out. I like PKMNE, but I would be happier just learning how to make a real, at least somewhat original, RPG since I already have the software. The problem is I don't really know what I can do with RMXP without all of those special scripts...

I'm just waiting for that moment when @bgillisp slips up and in a moment of carelessness accidentally spells Pokemon the way it's supposed to be spelled. And I'm going to skewer him for doing so! :mrsatan:

@Kendra The sprites are probably a much bigger issue than the scripts. Even if it's hand-made, you can't just copy a trademarked piece of art and use it without the copyright holder's permission. If the sprite is coming from Pokemon or looks like it's coming from Pokemon, you can't use it in your finished game/demo.

As far as the scripts, you have a lot of leeway to use those (assuming they weren't hacked from the game, which is extremely unlikely given that the games use a different programming language than RPG Maker). That's still a big boost in your game-making. The level you'll need to avoid is where your game is basically another Pokemon game. If a player would play it and couldn't say "this game is different from Pokemon because (a) and (b)", then you will need to differentiate it just a little more.

Finally, I had assumed at first that you were coming up with original mons, original characters, original places, etc. Given that you keep coming back to "fan games" I'm not so sure I was correct, so to be very clear: if you are planning to use Pikachu, Squirtle, Team Rocket, Red, Saffron City, etc., in your game, you will run afoul of copyrights. You can create something that is sort of like Squirtle, but if a reasonable man is going to actually confuse it for the real Squirtle, you're no good.

So if your idea was to create a Pokemon fangame with Pokemon characters, and you're planning to release it publicly (even if non-commercially), then my recommendation is to start over at square one and make your own game. If your idea was to create your own monster-catching game that shared some gameplay with Pokemon, as sort an homage but with completely original content, then you're good to go. And like I said before, you don't need to be too anxious about scrapping all audiovisual assets from Essentials until you're ready to release something playable (at which point you need to go ahead and do that).

PS - you asked about Parodies and Derivative Works before. Parodies are usually covered under fair use, but you can't just copy something and call it a parody. It's complicated and subjective. Parodies are works that lampoon or otherwise comment on the original work; parodies usually do not need to incorporate a large part of the original work to be effective and no one would confuse the parody for the real thing (nor would they assume it's endorsed by the real thing). The parody must derive most of its value from the humor or commentary, rather than from the direct similarity to the original. Good parodies include Super Mario RPG's "Axem Rangers" sequence (a parody of the Power Rangers) and South Park: Chef's Luv Shack's "Asses in Space" (a parody of Asteroids). Cartoons can also get away with directly portraying celebrities because people cannot trademark their own image, but trademarked characters have far more protection. Derivative works of copyrighted works, on the other hand, are strictly not covered by fair use. Some Creative Commons licenses allow derivative works to be made and released, but Pokemon is not that.

Just to be clear, Pokémon Essentials was never marketed along with RMXP through any official channels. The package was made to work in XP, but it was never anything official from Kadokawa or Degica. It was all fan made.

@Kendra
You won't find full free documentation on IP laws for a lot of reasons - including the fact that in most countries non-lawyers are forbidden to give binding legal advice. Add to that the fact that different countries have different laws, your only way to get a binding answer is to pay a lawyer for it.

That said, the most important part is to know the difference between copyright law and trademark law, because fangames are usually shot down by trademark laws, not copyright laws.
Copyright laws have exceptions like fair use, although those exceptions are very restricted.
Trademark laws have less exceptions....

Basically if a name has been trademarked, no one else can use it without a licence. That means producing a game "Pokemon: the fan idea" will get you into conflict with trademark laws. Producing a game "Monster Farmer" with the indirectly added "inspired by Pokemon" will not be problematic under trademark laws.

The other thing is copyright law, which is concerning complete works like picture, musics or scripts.
Again, you cannot use anything done by someone else without getting a licence for this prior to use.
In the case of the pokemon essentials like said above you cannot use the pictures and audios because they were ripped from the original games without licence.
The scripts are usable not because they're scripts, but because they were written and distributed with the intention and licence to help with fangames - if the scripter had decided to charge people for that work, then they would also have been off-limits.

But that is important because under copyright laws you could make a similiar work and then set your own licence to it, as long as you are NOT copying or editing anything that wasn't done by someone else. Any editing or copying from a source that you have no licence to use would turn the copyright into a combined copyright where the original is part of the result and the result therefore could only be used if the original creator gave the licence for that.
And that includes "eyeball-copying" in all variants (like tracing), not only the literal copying

That makes sense. I guess I'm glad I asked before creating a fan game that violated copyright or trademark law. I was wondering about it, but I thought it was mostly like fan fiction; everyone kind of ignores it and some even encourage it unless it gets really popular; then, maybe there will be a copyright infringement claim, but maybe not. I'm still sort of perplexed as to why any game developer would take such a risk, then? Think about popular fan games like Pokemon Uranium and hundreds, if not thousands, of others that follow a similar formula...

...

I wouldn't even have downloaded PKMNE had I known it was illegal...

If it seems too good to be true, as they say...

Since PKMNE contains ripped graphics and such should I delete it or just keep it and use it as a learning tool?

I also heard what you said about just creating a Pokemon homage, but that's a lot of replacing I'm going to need to do. I'm going to have to find new tile sets, new character sprites, new monster designs...

Plus, like I said earlier, I don't want to make a fan game if I have to do all of that. I would rather take the extra steps, whatever they are, and just make my own indie RPG monster collecting game. I can't write scripts that change RPG Maker XP's functionality enough to make something I would like, though, so I guess I need to learn how to do that first.

Any ideas on where / how to get started? RMXP's default turn-based battle system isn't that good, for one thing.

What is your experience in using the engine?

Check out these comics. It's a good starting point.

Seriously, don't go for anything remotely big for your first project. Gain experience by using the tool, figure out how stuff works, know the limitations of the maker, then understand what you would need.

Take extra care in only using what is available to you, trying to find things specific to you will be hard and probably won't happen unless you pay a scripter to do it, and if you don't have much experience, I don't recommend paying anyone for anything until you understand fully what you need.

Here is a link about fanfiction that explains why that is "maybe", check the fourth question "would you like to read my fanfic?"
http://www.davidweber.net/faqs/index/series:0

It has nothing directly to do with popularity, it has to do with the question if the original IP holder knows about it or not (although it is more likely to know about something if it has become popular)

Well, I'm not that familiar with coding and scripting, but I think I have a general idea of what I need to make this happen for me. The problem, though, is if I rip code from Pokemon Essentials, it won't be just my project, and the people / person who developed PKMNE don't want their code used anywhere except in Pokemon fan games, not original games that might be sold, so I don't want to use any of their stuff, because who knows? If I spend a year or more working on an original game, even if it is another Pokemon clone, I might actually want to make some money off of it.

....but that leaves me having to try to figure out how to change the player's party to a Pokemon-like system, how to create more visually appealing turn-based battles (where two mon look like they are squaring off against each other), Pokemon-like random encounters, unique capture animations, etc.

...and it's not going to be nearly as easy without using PKMNE as a guide, but I don't want to chance putting code from PKMNE in my game, forgetting about it, and releasing the game, say, on the app store, and a rabid Pokemon fan noticing, getting in touch with the software developers and them taking me to court over it...:(

I think the first step for me is to find some tutorials on game making with the XP engine. The other things I want to do will take some time, and coding them in might become easier as I learn how RGSS works.




That's interesting. I didn't think copyrights had to be defended. I thought that was a just a myth. I think Nintendo's official policy is to ask that fans not make fan works (and may be the reason there are so many Pokemon and Mario clones out there), but if that's the case, why are there whole communities dedicated to these sorts of things? Like I said earlier, if there's such a huge risk, why take the risk to begin with?

I can maybe believe that fan game creators are more likely to be spotted and to become popular than fan fiction writers, and that's probably a good thing for the little guy designing these things just to learn how game design works (I mean there are a lot of things in these communities people can learn to use and grow from, such as active game making support, and on-going software development, even for old game making systems). Same thing with the fan fiction writing community.

That does explain a lot, though, as writers make their living off of these characters and worlds and my guess is fan fiction writers and fan game designers might be completely ignorant of how the writers view all of this. Either that, or they don't care. Maybe they expect their games to stay in the community, be played and judged by the designated testers, and never really move beyond that. They aren't trying to sell anything after all.

It's also surprising, assuming the Pokemon clone I downloaded from the app store is legal (I would hope so considering it's a popular game), how close you can come to the original source game and still call yourself original. The one I decided to try out had very similar game play, turn based battle systems, semi-random encounters, monster design based on actual animals, like in Pokemon, similar looking healing centers for the monsters, evolution systems based on levels, etc. It felt very much like a first or second generation Pokemon game with updated graphics and better game play, really.

I think your first step is to get familiar with the engine. Checking out tutorials is great, but nothing beats solid experience of actually making a game. If you haven't released a game before, take making a project to sell off the table. You're not there right now. (please listen to this many people go down this rabbit hole and never come back)

Going for your dream project right now seems to have a lot of weeds in the way that I'm not entirely sure you're ready to handle and I think if you start down that path, you're going to find it frustrating and also you are likely to give up, and I'm sure you don't want that.

I guess you're right. Maybe I should just start with a simple RPG. What would you recommend, though? Most good RPG's focus on the story they are telling to enhance the quality of game play.

I linked a guide in my previous post.

Make the plot simple. In the example above, it's a dungeon crawler.

I will try to give you an idea, but you will want to make it your own, which is a good thing, don't feel like you have to go with this one:

This will stick to the town>story>dungeon>boss formula mentioned in the link quite easily.

You're going to want to stick with the stock assets. Make the story with what you have available to you. This way you can just focus on the RPG Maker program.

What you'll learn:

Mapping
Eventing
Databasing and balancing
What the maker can and can't do

If you need help, don't be afraid to ask!


To add some more about your question: it's a video game. It's meant to be fun. The gameplay matters a lot, equal to the story. Let the game you make form the story rather than the story form the game, at least during this phase.