Ok I know that some versions of RPG maker had First Person Battle System in there, and one had Side View Battle available, but with MV we have Side view and First Person available..
But it seems like many people despise First Person View combat? Is this simply because all the games made with First Person View in the past because of the previous makers or is it because there is a legitimate hatred of that as a system in the first place? I played "first person dungeon crawlers" and enjoyed them, the combat being first person as well (probably because of hardware limitations made it nearly unthinkable to see your team and enemies on screen all at once in an attractive fashion) and I liked them. A whole bunch even. Some of my early game playing memories are Wizardry on the NES (which had a broken AC system, I had no idea it didn't work properly we still managed to beat the game), and there were other games like Zelda also. I had bad dudes on the NES also, and while it wasn't perfect, I enjoyed beat em ups like Final Fight and Turtles in Time also. All of these games could have been something more than they were probably but they have left an impression on me.
I guess back to what I was getting at.. First Person Battle Systems..
Are they really hated so much that people wouldn't even consider playing your game? Is it that it seems like people are skimping on side view battler art? Is that actually watching your team members swing a sword is much more entertaining than imagining what that may look like? Do people just not feel engaged if they see the enemy but not their sprite?
Or is it that people are just burnt out on the system? Meow?
First Person Battle Systems
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Front view systems are harder to make visually appealing. They often turn out to be quite dull due to lack of action. Also, you can make sideview systems more dynamic. Still, I wouldn't say that people hate it. It's just difficult to work with. In fact, even I probably wouldn't dare to tackle a front view battle system.
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I think at least part of the reason is because the default front view battle system in the recent makers is...very, very lacking. There's no faces for your actors, no animations for the enemy attacking (in MV at least there's not even screen flashes by default), and it's a little difficult to tell who's attacking, who's taking damage, and other things like that. It's really quite boring.
Otherwise, for me personally whether a game has front view or side view combat doesn't matter. What really matters is how the rest of the battle system is designed. In fact I somewhat prefer front view over side view; as someone who's rather artistically challenged, not having to find sideview battlers for my actors helps a lot. Also, for darker games having the monsters look right at the player has a certain appeal to it. -
This doesn't seem to be a design question as such, so...
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It's a bit of both. Some people think it's too "old school" and boring and some have associated it with bad RM games and see it as a sign of laziness. Personally I would prefer if some front view system would use unique animations or at least have a snazzy UI, but I don't have a strong hatred for it like some folk seem to have.
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You must try King Exit game made with RPGAce :Ok I know that some versions of RPG maker had First Person Battle System in there, and one had Side View Battle available, but with MV we have Side view and First Person available..
But it seems like many people despise First Person View combat? Is this simply because all the games made with First Person View in the past because of the previous makers or is it because there is a legitimate hatred of that as a system in the first place? I played "first person dungeon crawlers" and enjoyed them, the combat being first person as well (probably because of hardware limitations made it nearly unthinkable to see your team and enemies on screen all at once in an attractive fashion) and I liked them. A whole bunch even. Some of my early game playing memories are Wizardry on the NES (which had a broken AC system, I had no idea it didn't work properly we still managed to beat the game), and there were other games like Zelda also. I had bad dudes on the NES also, and while it wasn't perfect, I enjoyed beat em ups like Final Fight and Turtles in Time also. All of these games could have been something more than they were probably but they have left an impression on me.
I guess back to what I was getting at.. First Person Battle Systems..
Are they really hated so much that people wouldn't even consider playing your game? Is it that it seems like people are skimping on side view battler art? Is that actually watching your team members swing a sword is much more entertaining than imagining what that may look like? Do people just not feel engaged if they see the enemy but not their sprite?
Or is it that people are just burnt out on the system? Meow?
I never enjoyed a Frontview battle system until i played the game :) -
Front view can work, but it needs a lot of extra features to pull off. Like Lisa and Undertale have front view systems, but the developers understood that just having a static enemy and menu commands would bore their players to tears. So they include a lot of animated movements and other visuals going on to let the player see the action. Players can easily detect the level of effort put into something, so you just need to go that extra mile to make it appealing.
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Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I actually prefer front view battle system, as I REALLY don't want to see my characters take a full minute to walk up to the enemy, swing, and walk back. The time it takes for all those fancy animations in an SV system really slows down your gameplay, and those animations honestly stop being neat when you have to watch them for the 2000th time in the game.
Then again, I'm also the person who read a book during FF8's guardian animations as I got so sick of them and I didn't care about that little extra % boost gave me enough to smash buttons for 2 minutes, so there's that too. -
I just finished Hylics and the way it uses animations in first person is super immersive, probably the best use of the first person view i've seen in RPG maker period. I think it depends on the sort of game generally. Id rather look at big front on sprites in games with weird art styles than side on ones. Then again the side on view works well in OFF and Space Funeral. I think in the end it all comes down to art direction. If your using the engines built in assets it generally looks pretty lame both ways.
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Basically what D.L Yomegami said. Default front view battle system is really hard to tell who is attacking who. The actor formation is on the row, no faces, no animation, and I had to read the text log on how much you deal the damage. It's frustrating, and especially it tend to end fast and I had no chance to read (hell, even reading it everytime is also frustrating).
I generally despise frontview battle, and like sideview battle more than frontview for a sole reason, I can tell what's going on better. But I'm not really anti-frontview battle. It just if I play a game with frontview battle, at the first sight reading the game summary, I'd play not for the battle, maybe something else. Could be because I like the theme, or other things. I won't expect much that battle would be engaging.
How you would improve frontview battle (to the point of at least I would enjoy it)
- First, put actor graphics on UI, either be face, bust, or full portrait (like one in RMXP).
- Second, the pace (important one in my opinion). Put casting animation, flash is ok, but animation is better. Before an actor / enemy attacks, it will show a casting animation, so I know who's acting. Don't make it too quick.
- Third, deal the damage to target, use damage popup too so I can see the number quick without reading the log. Or you could even completely remove the log anyway. I hate reading the log if it's necessary to know what's going on the battle.
Good thing on working on frontview is that you don't really need a fancy animation, while in sideview, if you can't make a fancy animation, it looks like a cheap battle too (or at least for me). -
Either way is fine for me. Though I've come to find it much easier to work with the small screen size - as you can get a bit more resolution and detail in your characters (though still they may be). Though enemies seem to benefit the most from this, which if you want to play off on your enemies rather than your protags - front view seems like a good idea.
Personally, I decided to take my game in a front-view battle system, because I just had a hard time managing characters of radically different sizes on a side view battle system and I found the change in perspective kind of refreshing after looking at multiple side view systems with super teeny fighters.
And an animated front view system is possible (I know I've seen some stuff on youtube before) and it didn't look any worse than an animated side view system. -
I've never been a fan of front-view battle systems. It's one of the reasons why I always preferred Final Fantasy over Phantasy Star. But I'd like to take a crack at it sometime. I'm sure with a bit if creativity, a front-view battle system could be good.
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The problems with front view systems concern a too static system and not knowing which character does what. Once you take care of those concerns it is fine and actually has a distinct advantage over side view:
These two enemies are almost the same actual size, yet due to perspective, you easily realize that the shark must be bigger, but further away. Our brain is used to work with this to the point that it tries to sort things in close and small and big and further away even if it has little to go on. So, even without a grid or landmarks, you recognize a scorpion or a rat, your brain tells you "it's a small thing, so it must be close", and voila: fewer problems regarding relative battler size in front view systems.
Side view systems, though ...
look out! giant monster assassins. 5 of them. And a 8 story high knight. LET'S FIGHT THEM.
Yeah.
of course, you can fix comparative sizes in side view systems and you can up perspective in front view. But this is a factor. -
I usually can't stand to play frontview battle games - way too hard for me to keep track of who is attacking and getting hit. i don't like long animations, but i like sideview systems where the battlers move up and swipe at each other so it's very apparent who is attacking and who is being attacked.
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While yeah it looks ridiculous but this was never be my concern. But perspective does matter on some people I guess?look out! giant monster assassins. 5 of them. And a 8 story high knight. LET'S FIGHT THEM.
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Front view battle system immerse the player to character's view. Most effective for actual "role-playing" game where you control ONLY one character. I don't particularly dislike it. Help you enrich your imagination... for those player who have it.
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While yeah it looks ridiculous but this was never be my concern. But perspective does matter on some people I guess?
A lot of people are pretty desensitized when it comes to size difference between actor sprites versus enemies; Final Fantasy drilled that in over the past thirty years. But the VX sprites vs VX battlers are hilariously out of place due to the enemies being 15x the size of your characters. At that point, the style difference clashes far too much and breaks immersion. -
To be fair, I only pointed out about the proportion.At that point, the style difference clashes far too much and breaks immersion.
Style clash will always be bad for every game, and as for the example screenshot, it's also not the best example. -
At that point, the style difference clashes far too much and breaks immersion.
Indeed. Which is why so many MV side view battlers have been made to replace the giants, and a lot of them look awesome. Personally, if I were to use sprite-battlers, I would want to go full ABS though, to utilize the map. Otherwise, the SV uses such a small percentage of the screen, it feels like the rest is wasted :/. As with all things, it comes down to personal preferences in the end. Whatever view though, without effort, the thing will always look bland. -
Front-view systems are still found in a lot of old-school or simple games, and I think are appreciated enough for what they are. For most, it's not a dealbreaker. I always recommend using pictures to represent the party in such systems, rather than text and numbers alone. It adds much more life to the combat, and connection between the player and his characters.
Side-view systems require a lot more work - and I think it has to do with expectations: once the player sees both parties on the combat screen, I think he expects them to physically interact, meaning that you also need to do a lot of animation for each battler to ensure it won't look stupid. If you're willing to put in the effort to make a LOT of art assets for battle, side-view systems are generally going to be a better experience for the player. To @bgillisp 's point, it's important that animations are kept short and crisp.
@Deletrius Very, very interesting and useful point about perspective - but many of RPG Maker's backgrounds use a linear (rather than single-point) horizon, and often monsters are placed near the edges of the screen (if for no other reason than that there's no room left for them in a crowded enemy party). Is this going to mess up the way that perspectives (and relative monster sizes) are perceived by the player?