MV - Fidel & The Pauper's Paradox (Sean Murray)

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Started by TheAM-Dol 140 posts Page 2 of 7 View original ↗
  1. TheAM-Dol said:
    However, money changes a lot. Once someone has paid for a game they are inherently invested into the game immediately because they have spent money. This makes it much less likely players will simply quit just because they don't like one section of the game, because quitting will effectively mean throwing away money. Though I don't have any data for this, I bet if you were to compare free games to premium games, the retention rate for players is going to be higher than free games. Does a premium price tag outright stop players from quitting? No, of course not, but the immediate monetary investment means players are more likely to stick it out through tougher parts.
    Here's some data for you.
    From Elden Ring:
    1670985155943.png
    Pretty much the first boss any new player will encounter. Considered frustrating. You lost almost 30% of players here.
    1670985200497.png
    First major boss fight. Even less player have reached it.
    1670985240809.png
    The most basic ending you can get simply by playing through the story content. Not even 20% have "finished" this premium price tag game.

    Dark Souls 3:
    1670985320358.png
    Tutorial boss. 16% of players have already quit here.
    1670985370319.png
    Boss roughly past the halfway mark through the game. Not even 50% of players made it here.
    1670985401891.png
    Most basic ending. Not even a quarter of player have "beaten" the base game.

    From my game, Tiqee's Escape(Paid: 2.99€):
    1670985835832.png
    Barely over half of the few players even made it out of the intro.
    1670985869980.png
    Even less made it to the first boss.
    1670985892781.png
    And again, not even a quarter of the few players I have, have actually finished the game.

    Here's another RPG Maker game, Trials of Guinevere(7,39€ on steam):
    1670986156430.png
    again 16% of players lost in the prologue.
    1670986196906.png
    By the end of act 1, only 33% of players are still playing.
    1670986235951.png
    Only 13% of players have beaten the game on easy mode.1670986259589.png
    and even less on normal.

    I think the pattern is quite obvious.

    Now this obviously includes players that have never even touched the game, got it in a bundle and whatnot. But I think it's still a good indicator that people will absolutely quit your game, refund it if they can and write a negative review, even more so if they can't refund anymore.

    And that's from people who make games for a living with years of experience. (Except for the RM games of course.)

    Considering how small our games are, you're lucky if you get 10 reviews. I think you're underestimating how devastating a bad review among 9 others can be. Let alone the intended pricetag for this.

    Now of course you can say "It's not for everyone, and I'm okay with that." all day, but ultimately it will undoubtedly harm your sales, and if you're unlucky, ruin what little reputation you may or may not have at that point, should you ever make more games.

    The question I would ask myself for the colosso is: Why is it frustrating? Is running around an enormous map repeatedly to somehow recognize the layout after countless repeats not fun?

    And of course I'm not posting all this stuff to talk down on your game. I've seen your streams and I know you put a lot of effort into this just like the most of us do as well. "It's not for everyone" is just like the lamest excuse in order to tell someone "I don't care what you say" possible.

    At the end of the day, it's your game of course, and you decide what it will be like. I'm just giving the most honest opinion I can, as I expect from anyone else reviewing my stuff.
  2. @SGHarlekin I cannot fully agree on the data though,
    though I'm a game and play on easy to know the mechanic
    till the first boss, than start over to hard/expert mode.

    even if they dont defeat the first boss yet can have serveral reasons,
    maybe playing other games, and continue later, almost none of the
    steam achievements has a 100% which is weird, specially for a prologue
    or very basic easy boss.

    if they play the game offline, achievement wont popup, and mostly
    not registered when you are online unless you are online.

    that they quit playing halfway the game is more understandable, but
    real gamers keep playing, if they need to stay alive for a achievement
    without someone fall, that's a different story.

    @TheAM-Dol I know you have queue and I have alot of patience.
    but if you just took it yesterday, it's fine, even if you had downloaded
    it before, a short reply is also good (I look into in), and reply bigger
    what you think without any rush.

    but if you have a bunch of beta-testers I understand :)
    keep up the awesome work, I really enjoy it, specially bug squashing
    or oversights ^^

    (not that the game is free or paid, I just love bugtesting, but also
    learn mechanics they have placed, mostly are unique not found yet.)
  3. ShadowDragon said:
    I cannot fully agree on the data though,
    though I'm a game and play on easy to know the mechanic
    till the first boss, than start over to hard/expert mode.

    even if they dont defeat the first boss yet can have serveral reasons,
    maybe playing other games, and continue later, almost none of the
    steam achievements has a 100% which is weird, specially for a prologue
    or very basic easy boss.
    That's why I said it's of course not fully accurate. But neither of these games are new, so "playing later" seems a bit odd. You can also just pick any other random game and the result will be pretty much the same.

    Of course, "real gamers" will keep playing, of course not everybody is going to quit your game, of course it's never "everyone". I'm saying there's a pattern to this and that I would think twice about having something in the game that's purely frustrating for the sake of being frustrating.

    Anyway, I guess I got my point across. Suppose everything else now is just traffic for the thread, which is good I guess. :D
  4. @SGHarlekin It's unfortunately a fairly universal issue; people just don't finish games. Which is a weird statistic since so many people will often say game length is a positive.

    I managed to beat the demo. But I did feel somewhat of a desire to quit during the arena. For me it was because I had read it would be about an hour long, and it had already been more than that. So it was more about time management for my day. I wonder if others were in a similar mindset.

    As for the difficulty itself, there might be something of an expectation issue there as well. I thought the game would be very casual because the main character is a little girl and it seemed very cutesy. Usually games that look like this are easy, right? Which doesn't mean the difficulty or art/theming needs to be changed. But perhaps the way it's advertised? Take stock of the whole of its experience and try to explain, "It's not Dark Souls... but it's not a kiddie game either."
  5. I think this will be the last update on this for the time being...maybe :LZSlol: Hopefully.
    I just wanted to document how I have approached Caldera Colosso to try to fix some of the frustrations.
    I think the core conceit of the problem can be broken down into 2 parts:
    It's difficult to find your way back home.
    It's difficult to find equipment.

    The second of those 2 problems is a relatively easy fix. I have added 4 islands with chests near the beginning of Caldera Colosso that will always be accessible (accessing them is not determined by the randomly generated platforms). These 4 new chests are also biased in their randomness to favor valuable accessories or weapons. This will hopefully mean that early into the run you will get something meaningful towards creating a unique and effective build for the boss battle.

    The first point about getting lost took some time to figure out, but it finally hit me on my way home from work: The classic hot/cold hint system. Before going into it, I'd like to show this screenshot from the editor:
    New Caldera Colosso
    NewderaColosso.png

    So, by hot and cold system, I mean just like in childhood when you'd give a hint to your friends if they are getting "warmer" or "colder" from an object. This allows me to still keep the vagueness of the arena, requiring the player to keep a mental map, however it provides a small hint that they are at least moving in the right direction.
    The arena has been split into 5 zones: the center area, 3 inner rings, and the outer most ring. This is demonstrated in the screenshot. (The regions actually mean nothing for this system to work, however they have been painted on in the editor to help me decide where to designate a zone change.)
    At certain choke points, the "distance indicator" (a new HUD element added for this system) will change, along side a sound to help players know when they have moved either closer or further away from the center of the arena. This was all executed with touch-based events, since I've already had performance issues, this seemed like the most light-weight implementation of this system. The good news is that since I manually designate where regions change through events, I am able to have more control over when these zone changes happen. For example, the lower portion of Caldera Colosso is split in half, horizontally, by zone 2 and zone 3. However, I have decided to treat the entire lower portion of Caldera Colosso as zone 3.

    Here is a preview of the new HUD element in action as well as the sound cue.


    Some notes on design choices:
    design choices
    • I originally thought of using a classic red light-green light system, but as I have discussed on my channel in the past, I want to provide color-blind accessibility. The best implementation of this just comes down to making sure my design is color-blind friendly. Since red-green blindness is one of the most common forms of colorblindness, I chose to stick with a Fidel-Blue gradient.
    • Alongside the color choice, the shades are not very distinct, which may make it difficult to determine when a zone has changed simply on color alone, thus I also have the indicator change shape to make each zone change uniquely identifiable at a glance.
    • I decided on the classic Orchestra Hit sample for the sound after playing around with a few different indicators. I settled on the Orchestra Hit sample because not only is it just a really exciting sound which I think fits the arena well, but it's very effective at cutting through noisy mixes, so even with the cacophony of sounds going on, it's still easily heard through all of it.

    edit:
    and I guess I should mention, since I brought up optimization; I have adjusted some parts of Caldera Colosso's logic. It won't make a huge difference in the overall performance, but every little bit counts, right?
  6. At last, I tried the game I was interested on and I am humbled for being the betatester of this project (sorry for my english, guys! D: )

    I kinda sure this beta was focused in a part of the game and that was not the beginning, I recommend to write this on the disclaimer, otherwise
    people might think that was the beginning of the game.

    Well, what can we say about the good stuff?

    I liked both the music and art, along with the gameplay and battles overall, but I prefer to explain this at the end.

    Let's talk about the things to fix, but maybe part of them are already fixed. If yes, good! Less work to do! :D I am not perfect, so you will find something to argue about and I have no problem on that, you know. Here's what I found for now:

    Things to fix
    - I don't know why, but I get 0 XP from the enemies. During this test, I "cheated" myself some levels when I thought to level up in game.
    I beat all the enemies I could anyway and I finished the beta with a level 9. I don't know what was the intended level;
    - I prefer an interactive tutorial instead of text on screen. It's a waste losing informations that makes the experience better;
    - If you are afraid for people using the DevMenu skill in the game, disable the skill when on battle, so you are 100% testers won't ruin
    everything;
    - I didn't like the "you can save on this candle because you wanted so" prompt. I don't think it's useful and I will personally remove it;
    - I got some "Wrong RID" and "Incorrect Player RID" prompts when I tried to throw a fish in a unintended way. Disable the throwing when it'S
    like that;
    - I would put in the description of the fish how to use it, since people can forget it;
    - You can jump to the fire if you manage to jump to a platform made by a fish and block yourself;
    - Some zoom effects are not updated correctly, like going forward and the zoom effect is getting bigger, but it remains as it is when you go back;
    - Confidence is a particular mechanic. I would put the exact confidence points Fidel will have in battle instead treating them as normal MPs
    outside the battle and then when you enter the battle, the value is changed.
    - During the three fish puzzle, you can look freely the map, but if you do, the light applied on the invisible Fidel remains, making this
    "Looking Mode"...weird. I would remove the inner light when moving the invisible Fidel when you look at the map;
    - The "throwing fish mechanic" must be more intuitive in general. Not only controlling better when the player can throw a fish, but more times
    during the game you throw a fish, go to the other side and a platform reappears. It's not intuitive for the player, a better solution might be
    throwing a fish on a "weird (desired, intended) spot" and then that platform will stay as it is, it won't go down if you don't jump to the other
    side immediately;
    - I would adjust the "Engage" menu. Think something for using the extra space left (maybe 4 rows instead 4 columns?) and add a description to
    the attack skill, maybe explaining better how it works, like "you can get Confidence points when you attack" or something;
    - When you have less confidence than the skill, both Fidel and the enemies can lose a turn doing nothing because they have not enough Confidence
    Points. I know this might be tactical (when I had two actions per turn this helped me) like getting hit and having enough points anyway for casting
    your spell, but watch out of eventual frustations due to this;
    - The names of the enemies aren't understandable enough. They are black and the volcano-like background don't help improving the readingness.
    - I can see a "1" on the "Dead" status. It should be removed, unless stacking Dead statuses will have sense in the game, but I don't think so;
    - I opened a chest and "Shiny Bubbles" (I think?) was in white...and I had white windows so I didn't understand well. Same with black windows,
    you can't see everything else since words are black too;
    - I would put a bit more saves. Even with healing torches, saving is not enough present to the game, especially in this game where dungeons
    are long.
    - When you lose a fight, you can access to the menu. I saw a weird statue class that way;
    - I would fix the pre-Caldera Colosso scene. Fidel's bust is not important since it's the same as the portrait, but bigger;
    - On Caldera Colosso, you can't do a jump to a platform. Normally you can jump to that platform from the left and the bottom, but the game
    makes you jump only from the bottom side;
    - There are weird collisions on Caldera-respawnroom;
    - At the beginning of Caldera Colosso, the announcer says: "Welcome to Caldera Collosso" instead of "Caldera Colosso";
    - You should remove the Lightning Rod mechanic of losing 1 HP each time you recharge it because it doesn't have a utility.
    You can't die by recharging too much, you can't risk your life by fighting enemies since they won't do any damage and then
    you will be cured before the boss. Also I would remove the error message when you try to recharge a sixth time. Put only the error popup
    there;
    - You must change the "Caldera-respawnroom" name, since it's visible from the save menù.

    ...ok, the "must improve" list is finished. I can see great things on this game. It's really ambitious and the premises are there, as I said before I can see this will be a good game. Fix the bugs, improve the tutorial and explainations and let me know when you will have something to test again.
  7. Thanks for the feedback! I've added it to my list of things to adjust.
  8. I did a *ahem* "short" short write up on the beta test. It, for the most part covers everything that has already been discussed in this thread, so for those who are already following this thread, there isn't much else to glean from the post unless you are curious to know the thought process behind some design decisions.
    For those who were not able to access the beta test, this write up is mostly for you. It's not the same as beta testing, but if you are curious what others experienced while also setting up what to expect out of my game, then this read is a great way to digest that information.

    It also comes with news of a delay. I've adjusted the OP to reflect the release date, but in summary; the beta test has shown me that I have more work than anticipated, so it's necessary to push the expected release date back.

    Have a read!
    Fidel & The Pauper's Paradox Preview & News! - Fidel & The Maker's Trial by NolanAlighieri
  9. Can you believe it's been over half a year since the beta test!?!

    I thought it was time to give the semester update on the game progress; what changes have been made since the beta, what is going on with the development, stuff I am excited about, etc.

    First I want to talk about my current work-in-progress, which is the third level of the game, The Forest.

    In The Beginning (of development):
    The Forest has been something I have been thinking about a lot since the very beginning of the game's development. Ironically, I wanted it to be the first level I developed, but I felt frustrated with the overhead leaf tiles and matching shadows found in the FSM forest tile set that I gave up and decided to start work on a different level. I was hoping by the time I came back to it I would have learned how to use those tiles better...I have not. I still find them frustrating to use. But I have found a better solution to using those and will just skip the overhead leaf tiles.


    Getting the idea:
    The forest has gone through many iterations in the design of the level, but as I began wrapping up work on The Cave (the level that the beta test took place in) I stumbled into a fun idea that I couldn't shake;
    What if a JRPG was a 4x game.
    • How would I handle turns? (Obviously combat has turns, but what about exploration?)
    • How can a player "expand" their territory when there aren't townships to conquer?
    • What would be the point of exploring? Would it just be the same as all the other levels?
    • What resource needs to be "exploited"? Gold?
    • What needs to be exterminated? Normal enemies?
    The challenge is that if it's the "normal" answer, it doesn't feel so unique and connected to the level. Gold as a resource? Won't work. Normal enemies? Yes, but with a minor twist. Expanding territory? Well the answer came with how to handle turns.

    The Concept:
    Here is what I settled on:
    • Turns are limited to a "day/night" cycle. (sort of)
    The player can move, take action, and explore freely until the end of the cycle.
    EnemyAction.gif

    During the cycle:
    • Player's collect a unique resource called "Red Juice". To reduce complexity, this is the only resource (even if at times it might make "logical" sense to use multiple resources).
    Red Juice can be acquired from many different sources:
    JuiceExtractor.gif






    • Naturally from plants that produce the juice
    • Collected by walking through Juice Swamps (shallow rivers of Red Juice that slow Fidel's movement)
    • Collecting power ups - yes, like arcade-style power ups. Players can opt to take the (powerful but temporary) buff, or give up the buff for Red Juice.
    • Activating Red Juice Extractors: machines dedicated to pumping Red Juice and will grant a small amount of Red Juice at the start of each cycle.











    During the enemy action, enemies might reclaim your Juice Extractors and will gather their own Red Juice to power themselves up.

    Fidel can use Red Juice for many things:
    • The ultimate goal is to reach the boss, but in order to unlock the boss's chambers, Fidel is going to need a lot of Juice!
    • Obstacles might impede your way. The days are short and Fidel is busy, so she can buy Juice Bombs with her Red Juice to clear obstacles to make short cuts.
    • Fidel can prevent enemies from reclaiming her Juice Extractors by buying a Juice Guard with her Red Juice.
    • And if Fidel needs to move fast, then let me introduce you to the new gear item for the level:


    With the Wabbawand in hand, Fidel can change form into a Fox so that she can move more swiftly! Of course, every second drains a little bit of your Red Juice, so you better have a purpose for where you are going otherwise you're just wasting your precious resources!

    Oh, and yes, indeed, there is a dedicated bork button. Bark and growl at any time for no reason!

    Here's the catch; At the beginning of every cycle, resources will be reset, but so will Fidel's position. She will be returned back to her base at the beginning of each cycle. In order to move deeper into the forest, Fidel will need to build new bases so that her progress will not be reset as much between cycles.

    And finally, I just didn't have any place to fit these. Here are the pick up sprites for the various power-ups. I am really proud of the animations.

    VerteranBuff.gifJellyBrewBuff.gifAliceBuff.gifLuckyBuff.gif
    (The cake and the clover actually came from 3D models.)




    Now I want to move on to some of the big changes since the beta test half a year ago (I can't believe it's been half a year!)

    THE BIG LIST OF CHANGES:
    It's been half a year and I obviously don't remember everything I have done since then. These are just the biggest things that I recall.

    COOL NEW STUFF:


    • Battle Passives
    ConBal, a "passive" that was present in the beta test was reworked. In order to reduce initial game complexity, ConBal has become an unlocked passive that is acquired later. As a result, I realized that more battle passives needed to be created to balance things out. Now there will be 3 battle passives that are strong effects based on Fidel's Health and/or ConP. (ConBal has also seen a facelift in overall effectiveness.)

    • Game Manual Skills
    This is a really simple but really helpful feature I am proud of coming up with. All skills are activate-able from within the player menu (outside of battle). When activating them, it will bring up detailed information about those skills.
    GameManualSkills.gif


    • Leveling is gone, replaced with "Ranks"
    This is a complex topic that had a lot of thought go in behind it. It's too long for this already very long post, so I am going to skip the explanation, but basically there is no more leveling in my game. Stat increases happen through gear and stat improvement items. Player can rank up which will increase rewards the player receives in combat as well as increase combat difficulty, but likewise, the player is able to rank down if things are too difficult. It acts as a dynamic difficulty slider.
    • With addition of the Ranking system, there has been a massive overhaul to game balance.

    • Shock Absorbers Added
    These sort of act like a passive but it's a little more complex. Shock Absorbers are invisible logic going on with enemies and the player. Fights are regularly monitoring how the player is doing. Shock Absorbers will dynamically change enemy damage and the types of skills they use in order to prevent what I call "sudden death" which is when the player is doing well in a fight but maybe because of a string of bad luck gets totally wiped despite doing well. This becomes especially important in a game with a single party member. Don't worry masochists. Shock Absorbers can be disabled in my Game Rules options!


    I'm running out of steam here from all the typing and gif-making, so let's just rapid fire some of the other cool features:

    • Shopping completely overhauled. Player can buy all weapons and accessories from the start of the game, but leveling up the town decreases the items prices. Also features random sales so players can snipe a good deal on gear before leveling up the whole town to get the deal.
    • Present Giving system. To encourage exploration, present item picks are scattered throughout the levels. Pick them up and bring them to your favorite NPCs for tiny rewards as a means of thanks for your kindness.
    • Major optimizations: A new "event culler" system intelligently culls parallel events when they are not needed. Additional improvements to optimization has increased stability greatly.
    And some smaller improvements:
    • Healing and "Sober Stabilizer" (skill removes states) have momentary forgiveness; reduced damage after healing, and state prevention after using Sober Stabilizer, giving the player a turn of reduced damage and immunity to states.
    • No more corpses in battle! The statue skill's logic has been cleaned up, which fixed the bug where the corpse of the defeated statue would sometimes get left in battle and prevent new statues from being made.
    • A console command line was added! This is mostly to help with my debugging during development, however games like Half Life and The Elder Scrolls can be fun to mess with the dev console, so I think I might hide access to it in the final release, but savvy folks can enable it to play around with the dev tools.




    Right, I think that is everything I can think of. Well, at least, it's everything I feel like typing up right now.

    I am hoping to do another closed round of testing in the future, however a date is not planned. Stay posted for when that opens up! It will be closed testing just like last time.
  10. Alright, well, I don't plan on doing regular updates like this (at least not this frequent) but I'm always proud of my music work and wanted to show off a new part of the soundtrack. I also know @Ms Littlefish likes to read my music rambles, so I thought I would go ahead and post this as an update.

    Let's just start by sharing the link to the music so you can listen to it while I ramble.


    As I had mentioned in my previous update, I have been working on sandboxing mechanics in the Forest level. One of the key aspects of this level is this cycle mechanic. Basically, the player has 3 minutes to explore and take actions before the screen fades out, enemies take their own actions, and then it's the players turn to explore and act again.
    While I was play testing this out, I found that constantly listening to the beginning of the song really makes the music quite fatiguing. There's something about loops that put us in a musical trance; without noticing the gaps in the loop, it just becomes background noise to set the mood. However, when the loop is apparent, it starts to feel really, really tiring hearing those same notes over and over again.
    I couldn't shake the feeling that I just needed to write alternate versions of the forest theme so to help alleviate some of the music fatigue. Now, I still kept this pretty simple to execute;
    Rather than write wholly new pieces, these pieces are derived from the original piece. It was originally just going to be swapping out the instruments for new ones to just give it a new texture but otherwise the same song, but it couldn't be that simple for me, of course.
    It is mostly the same, but one of the main elements of the original version are the drums. The drums are basically a drum solo throughout the entire song, just rocking out. So I felt like each version needed its own original drum rhythm. The song itself also expands slightly with each version, adding a small new section to the second "verse" of the song.
    The irony is that the final version of the song is actually longer than 3 minutes, so it's possible to actually not hear the full version of the song :LZSlol:

    What I really like about the level is that there are a lot of mechanics and moving parts to the level (see the previous update), but even more interestingly is that I feel like I have tied them all together really well, as in mechanics interact with each other. One thing I have thought about - now that there are multiple versions of the level theme - it is a little bit strange having the weather stay the same on the map. The "lighting" stays the same which seems mismatched with the mood change between the different versions. So part of me would really like to include a weather system with the cycles, however, I wouldn't want to include it just for the aesthetics of it, but I would want it to interact with the other mechanics as well, and well, now we really are scoping aren't we? Coming up with mechanics that tie a weather system to the rest of the mechanics would take time, and considering the level is just a one-and-done kind of thing, I think the current number of mechanics is more than enough.



    At this stage, I am just polishing some of the mechanics and working through edge cases and bugs with mechanic interactions, however nearly everything has been implemented. So soon, hopefully, I'll be able to begin building the actual level all of this stuff is for.

    Well, see you in the next one!
  11. Every time I get tagged in a thread I don’t recall posting in I get an instant wave of “, what did I do?!”

    You’ve really just described the challenge of game music, and something I’m still trying to refine all the time. Game music is an entirely different animal than just… listening (?) music. You’re trying to create something that has a ton of the same expressive attributes without having so much so that it’s rather obvious the song ended and started over. The music needs to be slammin’ but it’s a very careful exercise to not pull the player out of the game and into the music.

    I’m very much with you in how to approach alternate versions. I’m really not that kind of person who just adds a sleigh bell and LOOK iT’s ChrisssMASSS.

    I really like the track by the way. Really liking the little mallet doodles and mid/low string slams. The alt with the vibraphone taking the melody is such as classic for any sort or rain or night scene. I predict I will have a very similar issue with adding weather and day cycles. :kaoswt:
  12. Ms Littlefish said:
    Every time I get tagged in a thread I don’t recall posting in I get an instant wave of “****, what did I do?!”
    Somehow I am familiar with that feeling, except from my employer. It's rare for them to contact me, so any time they do I'm already making plans on how to survive while I look for a new job before I even open their email. You'd think after the seventh email of them just giving basic reports I'd chill out, but nah, I still start packing my bags as soon as that email comes in.

    Ms Littlefish said:
    You’ve really just described the challenge of game music, and something I’m still trying to refine all the time. Game music is an entirely different animal than just… listening (?) music.
    It's funny, I've seemed to have fallen into it pretty easily. I mean, I might not be the best judge since it is my music after all, but I like to believe my music falls into good "background listening" pretty well. I actually recall from even my earliest days of music making that often my friends and family would say, "Oh, this sounds like it could be video game music!" So maybe it's all the years of going directly to the video game rental section at the local Blockbuster instead of renting a movie with the rest of the family on "Family Movie Night" that have rotted my brain's ability to write "contemporary" music.
    However, I can definitely say that my ability to make smooth loops has improved. Not shown in this thread is 1 more "version" of this level's music. Lizzy Munson, the cellist that worked with me on my previous album was going to perform on the soundtrack but as a skilled and reputable cellist, her rates are a bit steep and after losing my job the project had to be scaled back. (to be honest, the project would have inevitably been scaled back regardless since I would have wanted to devote that money towards my artist and programmer) Well, my game features "bonus tracks" - very well hidden songs the player can unlock. These songs are mostly just remixes, pallette cleanser songs from the Fidel scale/style, or unreleased music. I figured I still had this Lizzy Munson song that never got released, so I cleaned up the mix a little and made it a hidden fourth version of the level theme. This is all to say, while I was cleaning it up, I realized...man, the loop on this is awful. It's really transparent where the song ends and the loop begins. So over the 2 years since writing that song, I have definitely learned how to make better loops.
    It mostly comes down to obsessively listening to my song on loop. I think a lot of my time "writing" music is actually just listening to the song over and over again to get ideas and look for problem areas. While listening to it on repeat so many times, I begin to see the sections of the song that would loop best.
    I'd really like to work with you some day on music! :LZSexcite:I feel like we could learn a lot from each other's work flow. I know you're a smart fish with music, and I'm probably smart but considering mostly self taught through over a decade of trial by fire and failure I feel a confident mix of skill and self-doubt in my abilities :LZSlol:
    (Streaming has been a boost to my confidence in my skill since folks often request I put the Fidel soundtrack on in the background. I'm not the only one who likes my music for once :kaocry:

    Ms Littlefish said:
    Really liking the little mallet doodles and mid/low string slams.
    This post is already long, but hope you don't mind a little more rambling :LZSlol: Feel free to take breaks and come back to read a little bit more.
    Yeah, the way that I have handled all of the level music is that I have a level theme. The theme is really, really basic. The long notes the violin plays is the theme. I have used this same theme for each level, but each one changes the chords, tempo, and arrangement (obviously). However, there are consistent elements. The "Fidel Band" as it were for the levels is: A piano, an acoustic guitar, a string section, and an arppegiated synth pad. This is also something that makes the 2 alternate versions stick out because they deviate from the Fidel Band model, but oh well, having a change in the arrangement is a good palette cleanser.
    In the version with the vibes, this was actually a test for the trumpet library. I have an upcoming quest Somon (my artist) is doing some art for that I think is pretty cute. Fidel will need to investigate and inquisit the townsfolk, so I thought making this section have a faux noire theme would really tie things together well. Unfortunately I didn't have a good trumpet library. I really would have preferred a muted trumpet, but found this trumpet library was free (as long as you download their bloatware software :rolleyes:) So I decided these alternate versions would be a good test to see what I can do with the library. It's okay, obvious why it's free, but does the job well enough. There seems to be some strange distortion in the highest part of the trebles on some of the samples (I think it's just some phasing or something that happens to the "breath" of the player as it moves through the instrument) but for a free library I think it's capable enough to do the noire stuff I want to do. I would love to own the full version of this library, their Sasaki Trumpet, but hard to justify buying it when I don't know how often I will use a trumpet in my music.
    The third variation I think my be my favorite. The drums are at their whackiest, the full verse being played, and the drum fill between verse and chorus, plus the legato-to-staccato cello part during the chorus is really cool. It's weird, most definitely, with the square wave synth plucks and the warble-y bass pad but it's the strangeness I really like. Also, although I started with presets for this song, in the end, sonically, they just didn't mesh as well as I wanted with the song, so I wound up just designing the synth sounds myself. I use to do a lot of patch designing for synths during my early years, but got sick of how it tends to break the flow of my writing; having a good pace on the writing, then needing to stop and spend an hour or two programming a synth patch just ruins the creativity. It's rare that I design patches now myself, but when I do, it certainly does add a nice personal touch to the music that - at the very least - helps me enjoy the song more.
    Oh! and before I wrap up, I had to do some fancy production techniques on the final version as well. The piano and the square wave synth clashed a lot in the mix. Wasn't happy with adjusting gain, as I wanted both to be equally present in the mix, so here comes good ol' side-chaining. I bring this up just because I remember saying to you on a status post that jazzy stuff like this doesn't like fancy production techniques. Obviously there are exceptions sometimes :LZSwink: It's pretty transparent use of it though. Just using an EQ gain to duck the clashing frequencies of the square wave to make a little more room for the piano.

    Well this has been pretty long. Thanks for letting me ramble about music. I can probably do this all day, but I would want to make sure folks actually have a chance to read everything and not feel completely bored. :LZSlol:

    TL;DR GPT summary
    The person discusses their journey in creating convincing music loops for video game soundtracks. They mention their natural inclination towards creating background music that suits video games, possibly influenced by their preference for video games over movies. They note their progress in making smoother loops and mention a cellist they worked with on a previous album, whose music they adapted for a game's hidden tracks. They reflect on the development of their loop-making ability over two years, attributing it to listening to their music obsessively and identifying sections that loop well. They express a desire to collaborate with the forum member they're responding to, as they believe there's potential for mutual learning due to their different backgrounds in music production. They conclude by mentioning that streaming has boosted their confidence in their musical skills, as listeners request their music for background use.

    The person elaborates on their music writing process and the variations they've created for their level themes. They mention having a basic level theme centered around long violin notes and how they adapt it by changing chords, tempo, and arrangement for each level. They discuss the consistent elements in their "Fidel Band" setup, including piano, acoustic guitar, string section, and arpeggiated synth pad. They describe alternate versions of their music, including one with vibes and a faux noire theme (not entirely accurate, but that's what happens when you read the AI version and not the full version), and another with unique drum patterns and synth sounds they designed themselves. They highlight their preference for personal synth sound design despite its potential to disrupt the writing flow. They also mention using side-chaining as a production technique to manage conflicting frequencies between piano and synth. They conclude by expressing their enjoyment of discussing music and their awareness of not overwhelming readers with lengthy posts.
  13. I'm with you. Writing music is a lot about listening. Different headphones, different speakers. Things sound different all the time and sometimes I need to adjust based on how it will sound on different devices.

    My workflow is honestly pretty chaotic. I do a lot of piano drafting and always end up hopping back to the piano a few times throughout scoring and notating. I like having a core that survives if you can strip it down to a piano solo.

    The whole thing with game music vibes and the loop point is it came to me a lot more naturally when I was learning on my own. When I was really little and becoming interested in music, I picked up a lot by transcribing what I was listening to when my brother was playing the Nintendo. Then, when I started taking all my classes in high school...that's when I got really verbose and overshooting the scope on looping music.

    Much of what I did throughout high school and college were very much long, 3 movements or more so it took awhile to reapply education to new music goals.

    I also rather enjoy working with other people or working with other people's material just to see another process. I always end up taking something away even when it doesn't gel perfectly.

    And, damn...I could really keep talking about this too. I've only really touched the first section. LOL.
  14. Ms Littlefish said:
    Different headphones, different speakers.
    Reference monitors are the best if you can afford multiple reference points, but obviously that gets quite expensive. Eventually you get used to whatever pair of headphones you have. 1 good pair of headphones and an understanding of it's response graph and help you compensate for a lack of other references. The graphs and rtings and crinacle really help with getting a sense of my headphones responses. Due to moving across the globe, I was forced to downgrade my reference equipment, so I just have my nearly 2-decade old Sennheiser HD280 pro (that review is for the 2016 version). These use to be my main referencing cans for most of my music career, but I would tend to under-emphasize bass and over emphasize trebles due to their response. A couple years ago I finally bought the near universally used Audio Technica M50x which if you have ever watched a podcast, you can bet the hosts are using the M50x. I am happy with their reference capabilities, but construction and comfort are a bit lacking.
    Prior to moving I had some Yamaha HS8 speakers for reference - these are well respected as they are picking up the legacy of the NS10 speakers from the 70's and 80's and were a studio staple. In fact, many studios still seek out second-hand NS10s since their response is basically "if you can make it sound good on these, it will sound good anywhere.", or in other words: disgustingly flat. I'd kill for a set of NS10s myself. A seller on Amazon had listed a pair of NS10s for an "affordable" price but they were sold before I had a chance to save up enough ;_;
    Anyways, obviously large 8-inch cones in solid speaker housing is a bit tough and expensive to lug across the ocean, so unfortunately they stayed in the land of the free while I moved elsewhere. Despite that move happening 6 years ago, it's been tough getting the "studio" back up to spec and have just relied on my cans for monitoring.
    Additional monitoring for "sanity checks" will happen on other, non-reference speakers, such as my computer speakers or my Galaxy Buds (I hate these stupid bluetooth earphones, but the damn things came free with my overpriced gimmick phone, and since Apple had the "courage" to remove a feature, obviously I can't just whack my phones right into my ultra-expensive flagship phone because everyone has to follow the "courage" Apple has. Courage.)

    Ms Littlefish said:
    I do a lot of piano drafting and always end up hopping back to the piano a few times throughout scoring and notating.

    I'm honestly a little bit jealous. During my earlier days of music production I lived with my father. He owns a Steinway 7 foot grand, and I would also often just go to the piano and try noodling out some chords or melodies. I'm not a great pianist - quite terrible in fact, but just having that immediate, frictionless response of hearing what I was playing NOW just made the work flow so much easier. He did loan me one of his many workstation keyboards (not DAW, but just W - as in a hardware workstation) which I used as a MIDI controller, but once again, after leaving the country, it couldn't come with me. I also left behind the 1970 Gibson he said he gave me, but that was when he was drunk, so obviously he meant "loan" (still a disappointment when I thought I could at least take the guitar but then he hit me with the "no, I'm not giving you that.")
    Now for doodling I have this hateful little Akai 25 key MIDI controller. For some reason this thing was highly recommended by musicians, and I just don't see any reason to like it other than its price. Price is definitely good, but you get what you pay for.
    So mostly I start a new song by just creating a "main idea" - whether it's the chorus or verse or even a bridge, doesn't matter, but it's the main element that inspires the whole song and most of the arrangement. Once I feel the loop is refined, I begin to stretch it out. Chances are I'll need ideas for the other missing areas (verse/chorus whatever the main element isn't) and will likely go back to the looping while I find and fill out the idea. Once the song is mostly fully constructed, I go back and add variation to rhythms and melodies to reduce the "looping based" construction feel to it, and if the song isn't finished at that point, then I finally go in for the final part.

    Ms Littlefish said:
    The whole thing with game music vibes and the loop point is it came to me a lot more naturally when I was learning on my own.
    And maybe that's the reason why it's easy for me too. Since I am mostly self taught I never learned the finer points of theory. I took music classes in middle and high school, played Bassoon for most of that time, was the drummer in the jazz band at the high school, but after my time at those schools wrapped up I actually stopped doing music for awhile. That's pretty much where my theory learning ended. My father, as implied, is a musician and has been raised as a prodigy musician since a young age, so he has a golden ear. When I lived with him he would share some theory with me but it was obviously just bits and pieces, not a full course or anything. Sometime during my "college" years, I picked up "computer music" and started learning about it then. It was still mostly self taught, but I found it really interesting so I often used forums and read lots of information about it. My early stuff was still pretty ugly, and I would say that things finally began to feel more refined starting with the album I released in 2021 and finally reaching what I feel I would call "the beginning stages of mastery" with my current soundtrack. (and by that, I mean I'm not a master - still plenty to learn - but I am competent and confident in my skills; at a commercial level.)

    Ms Littlefish said:
    I also rather enjoy working with other people or working with other people's material just to see another process. I always end up taking something away even when it doesn't gel perfectly.

    I could always send you the MIDI files to one of my songs. I would also send you a project file, but I doubt we have the same plugins so it would be effectively useless. I could always do a "making music" stream. I've done them in the past, but I get too caught up in trying to be an "entertaining streamer" by narrating everything that I become too distracted to actually do work. Maybe I could just walk you through a completed project :LZSskeptic:

    TL;DR GPT summary
    The person discusses their experience with reference monitors and headphones for audio monitoring in their music production setup. They mention the advantages of using reference monitors and multiple reference points but acknowledge the cost involved. They emphasize the importance of understanding a headphone's response graph to compensate for the lack of multiple reference sources. They talk about their Sennheiser HD280 Pro headphones, which they've used for a long time but note that they tend to under-emphasize bass and overemphasize trebles. They mention acquiring Audio Technica M50x headphones, which they find suitable for referencing but lacking in construction and comfort.
    Before moving, they used Yamaha HS8 speakers for reference, noting their reputation for flat response similar to the legacy NS10 speakers. They express a desire for NS10 speakers but mention the difficulty of transporting large speakers across the ocean. Due to their move, they've relied mainly on headphones for monitoring. They also mention using non-reference speakers like computer speakers or Galaxy Buds for additional monitoring checks, expressing some frustration with the latter's inclusion with their phone due to Apple's influence.



    The person reflects on their envy of having access to a Steinway 7-foot grand piano during their earlier music production days. They mention how playing chords and melodies on a piano offered an immediate and smooth creative process. They also used a workstation keyboard loaned by their father for MIDI control, which they found helpful for their workflow. However, they had to leave these behind when they moved, along with a guitar that their father didn't ultimately give to them.
    Currently, they rely on an Akai 25-key MIDI controller for doodling, expressing dissatisfaction with its performance despite its affordable price. They outline their music composition process, which begins with creating a "main idea" that serves as the foundation for the song. They elaborate that they refine this loop before expanding it, usually focusing on areas lacking in ideas. The person then adds variation to rhythms and melodies to prevent the song from feeling overly loop-based. Finally, they address the finishing touches for the song.



    A responds to B's statement about struggling to write convincing looping music for video games due to increasing knowledge of music theory. A reflects on their own experience and mentions that being mostly self-taught in music may have contributed to their ease in creating such music. They briefly outline their music education background, including playing the Bassoon and being the drummer in a jazz band during middle and high school. A notes that their theory learning essentially stopped after high school.
    A's father, who is a musician, shared some bits of theory with them during their time together but not in a comprehensive way. A mentions that during their college years, they became interested in computer music and began self-teaching themselves. They used forums and read extensively to learn more. A acknowledges that their early music was not very refined, but they started noticing improvements with the album they released in 2021. They consider their current soundtrack to represent a level of competence and confidence in their skills, though they emphasize that they are not a master yet and still have more to learn. Overall, they convey a sense of growth and progress in their music production journey.
  15. Oh man. Absolutely did not mean to ghost you there. Got carried away with all my doodling and whatnot.

    I have the M70xs and love them! I cannot account for every headphone situation but I have AirPods. Don’t love them and sometimes they do really weird things so I kinda just panic check that it doesn’t do anything unexpected on those.

    I’d absolutely love to get some proper neutral monitoring speakers some day because of ear fatigue and honestly…wearing headphones for long periods of time seems to give me headaches.

    I’d be down for a MIDI file or even the completed project stream idea. Honestly, it’s very helpful for me to see the guts of other people’s creations and just babble about how they made things.
  16. Ms Littlefish said:
    the completed project stream idea
    You know what, I am still on Summer vacation, so I think it would be easy to throw in an extra stream outside of my regular schedule. If you want to join live to chat and as questions, let me know some times that work for you next week (August 21 - 27). of course there's timezones and all that, but since I am on summer vacation (and am a night owl anyways) I can make any time work.

    After the stream, I can put a download link to the MIDI of the song I show on stream - so it's the best of both worlds!
  17. I’m kind of an early bird. I think Japan is 13 hours ahead of EST if I remember correctly. I figure you wouldn’t want too, too early my time so other people are more likely to join (or even be awake for that matter LOL).

    I actually do not have an entire lot going on next week at all, so I’m pretty flexible as long as it’s not during my bed time. XD
  18. Ms Littlefish said:
    too early my time so other people are more likely to join
    Most of my live audience tends to be the Euro folks since I typically enjoy streaming in the evening and it's usually afternoon for them. However, that said, any stream that is not playing other people's games typically perform...not great on my channel, so I don't expect many folks to show up.
    But, looking at the world clock;
    • if you prefer to watch in the evening, I can stream from 9AM my time (8PM for you) on Monday, Wednesday, or Thursday. (I can also do 8AM, but I figured you might want time to eat dinner at your own pace and not feel rushed)
    • Or if you prefer watching in the morning, I can stream Monday - Friday at 10PM my time (9AM for you) (that's also the time I normally start my streams)
    • I can also do a midday stream for you, which would be in the wee hours of the night, 3 - 5AM. Might be kind of exciting to wake up, grab coffee, and stream. Not something I would do on a regular basis, but for a one-off kind of thing, it sounds fun :LZSproud:

    It always depends on how active chat is, but streams typically last 2 - 3 hours.

    Let me know what works best for you :LZSexcite:
  19. I miss yo streams @TheAM-Dol!:kaocry:My weekends have been crammed so fulla things and parties and stuff, I feel like I've barely got time to breathe! But, once September rolls in, I hope I have time to join a stream or two! :kaoluv:
  20. 9 AM is honestly perfect for me, would let Euros pop in too. Wednesday is probably the most solid day for me. As much as I get super giddy at 5AM, I could never ask someone who was not 100% enthusiastic to do that. LOL.